A Digital Organ for St. Peter's
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,801
    Perhaps in some circles the eye-rolling phrase goes "Does a traditionalist consider the Pope Catholic?"
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    That simulacrum looks like a wart on the nose of a perfectly beautiful face
  • Um, Francis -

    I do indeed see a wart.
    I don't, though, see an organ. (???)
    Where is it???
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    Fixed
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    I suppose we're beating a dead horse, one can't help but notice that is took 50 years to find this "new solution" to a "new demand". I wonder which is new, Vatican II, or the acoustic demands of St. Peter's?
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    A new, digital organ has been installed in St. Peter’s Basilica for papal celebrations. The Director of the Pontifical Sistine Chapel Choir says it responds both to the Basilica’s practical, acoustic demands and to the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

    “New demands require new solutions,” according to Msgr. Massimo Palombella, Director of the Pontifical Sistine Chapel Choir.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    the new demand is putting the musicians down front in the sanctuary... nuff said.
  • Antonio
    Posts: 43
    I think even if the 'simulacrum solution' could not be avoided (which is very doubtful to say the least), a much better thing could be done. There're great and multi talented sound engineers, both musicologists and organists, involved in sampling historical organs around the world. One or a group of them could be hired to record the Tamburini organ pipes, build a top-quality sampleset, and put it to sound as an acoustic reinforcement of the real organ inside the basilica and/or as much more controlled reprodution of it for outdoor or broadcast purposes. Technically, this solution would be as 'real'/'fake' as the real-time amplification of the pipe organ. As for the inside sound reinforcement goal, sometimes it's done on special occasions where symphonic orchestras and/or soloists do not reach an ideal sound pressure for a huge acoustic volume or lack proper equilibrium each other. The sampleset could be put on sale, and revenue destined to the real organ maintenance.
    Thanked by 1Andris Amolins
  • Is the picture with the cart truly how this thing is sitting, in semi-permanent fashion, or is it temporarily perched there, in transit? If the former, and regardless of one's views about electronic organs, it is...astonishing. There's nothing wrong with modesty, but wheeling keyboards at St. Peters around on what could be the A/V cart from middle school? Really??
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    I suppose if it were a portative on wheels it would be slightly more acceptable, except I don't buy putting the organ on floor Level
  • The existing pipe organ, too, is on floor level, ok, a step or two up.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    A previous post
    lhouston58 November 2015
    For specs and pics of the St Peter's organ, click on the link: http://danwebs.com/chorg/vatorg.html
    references the information that the St. Peter's organ has an additional moveable console, and that the Sistine choir room has an Allen organ.

  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    Andris

    That instrument appears to be in its own dedicated space apart from the sanctuary and yes as you say, raised up a bit.

    My beef with organs on the floor are that it muddies the acoustic of both organ and choir.

    My more serious beef is when the decision is made for the sake of musicians being seen. It seems to me that these novel egocentric decisions are in general not compatible with liturgy if you get my drift.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    The visiblity of a traditional liturgical choir is hardly a novelty. They should be seen to be involved in the liturgy, but not for exhibitionism.
    Westminster Cathedral is near my ideal, organist and choir just about visible most of the time, but not intrusive. DM waving his arms NOT visible.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    My beef with organs on the floor ...

    Do you have a recipe for this dish? And what organs do you have with your beef? And is it served whilst sitting on cushions on the floor?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    Charles:

    Simply drop cow on floor, plop down and eat. (cushion optional)
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Now lets not be lacking in manners>
    Untitled1.pdf
    103K
    Thanked by 3CharlesW CHGiffen Carol
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,165
    So, francis, you eat your beef without cooking first????? Not a really healthy option.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    i love it mooing! (actually out here we eat elk)
  • Actually, the less cooked it is, the harder your digestive system has to work to break down the fibers of the meat. So you burn more calories eating that way. What's not healthy about that?!?!?!?!?!?
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Carol
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,165
    Parasites.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Carol eft94530
  • Could someone steer this conversation back on target?
    Thanked by 2WGS Carol
  • .
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • We may wax angrily. We may wail and gnash our teeth. We may be dumbfounded. We may be horrified and out-raged. But it is of no consequence to those who are so blind with expediency and momentary zero capital outlay that such calumny is as nothing in their aesthetically, musically, and morally bankrupt minds. Fake means nothing to them. Nor does simulacrum, fraud, nor any other epithet which can be applied to their travesty of righteous music making within the very halls of one of Christendom's most sacred spaces.

    Back on target, Chris urges. Well, if I may be indulged in a brief spell of parrhesia, let no one fail to recognise that even those who make sacred music in one of the most sacred of hallowed precincts have chosen of their own free will to do so with the fraudulent and the fake. This will not be lost on those who champion fraud in music making and pretend that it's of no consequence, who peddle the patent lie that 'you can't tell the difference' (you CAN! tell the difference!), and that it doesn't matter. It will be less than encouraging for those who strive for what is true and real in worship of him who is Ultimate Reality and Truth. Not only has the holy of holies been desecrated, those in lesser places will find themselves bereft of encouragement and example in their pursuit of beauty and honesty. How could such a man in such a position be so unutterably, unspeakably, so mindlessly blind - or self-absorbed and deluded! And, how can he think so little of the faithful who come to worship there? How, in fact, did he get where he is?! SHAME!
  • Not only has the holy of holies been desecrated ... And, how can he think so little of the faithful who come to worship there?


    Have you ever attended Mass in St Peters? I have. It was a less than uplifting experience, from the security guards onwards.
  • momentary capital outlay


    There was no money spent. That speaks for itself.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Wow the organ is not even anywhere near the top of the line digital. Honestly, this is totally shocking and it never would have happened under Benedict. How sad.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Right. And it's not like they couldn't afford better.
  • Well, Greg, 'top of the line digital' is still a simulacrum.
    Fake is fake.
    Yes, let us hope that Benedict would have exercised better judgement.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Do we know whether it is simulating a Cavaillé-Coll?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I'm sure it isn't. LOL. Probably sounds more like Blessed Slumber Funeral Parlor.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    I still remember, and you can look it up, Emeritus Benedict's homily at the restoration of the organ at his brothers' church...it's one of the best things written about the organ. He certainly knew the difference between a simaulacrum and the real thing!

    Should we have plastic flowers, because they are cheaper?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ...plastic flowers, because...

    It's bad enough that we have 'plastic candles' in many of our churches, You know, those fake candlesticks with something like a small oil lamp inserted at the top. These candle simulacra are taking over. At least I've yet to see any of these battery powered 'candles' with the little plastic flame fluttering around. Isn't there something in writing about the need for candles to be of bee's wax?

    At Walsingham we even use unbleached bees' wax during poenitential seasons. For any who've likely never seen such (and probably never will, our Church being what it is) these are a natural pale brown in colour and are historically burnt at poenitential times.
    Thanked by 1ghmus7
  • At least I've yet to see any of these battery powered 'candles' with the little plastic flame fluttering around.


    Apparently you don't travel to the wrong places.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I haven't seen any electric pseudo-candles on any altars, only as devotional lights in shrines: insert your donation and press the button next to the light.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Carol
  • Chonak, how awful, how disgustingly, loathsomely cheap and tasteless.

    If ever I encountered false candles such as those of which you speak I would be so burned up that I would not think of leaving an offering.

    There is something fundamentally amiss in the heart and character of those who are not offended profoundly by falsehood.

    The very lies that they accept within themselves they foist without compunction upon others as well.

    At issue is a fundamental and gratuitous devaluation of human dignity and intelligence.
    (Not to mention a very low degree of respect for just who the All Holy is.)
    Thanked by 2chonak CHGiffen
  • I visited a church in Wisconsin (I was traveling and do not recall the parish, and I grew up in Wisconsin with fond memories, so no flames are being thrust in its general direction) in which the altar 'candles' were turned on by remote control. It was startling, and then demoralizing.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    A rather funny incident involving those electric candles. Some years ago, the pastor at our cathedral bought one of those electric votive stands with multiple "candles." His intent was good, since it was next to an Infant of Prague statue where the congregation walked a little too close for candles with flames. The statue was in a corner beside an aisle under the loft. The old cathedral - ugliest church in Christendom - caught fire when the electric votive stand shorted out. One of our priests said it was too bad they didn't wait an hour longer to call the fire department. It smoked up the new Allen which was right above the candles in the loft. You may or may not consider that a loss.
    Thanked by 2Carol ghmus7
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,165
    I've only been in one church where they had the electric candles. It was a very poor parish, and someone probably donated them as a cost saving measure for the church.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    The church should provide real candles, ESPECIALLY for the poor. Remember, a single penny in the offering is priceless to heaven.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Send pennies. Lots of pennies.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    We should make altars out of plastic as well, much more economical. And make churches out of plywood...oh wait that's already being done...
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Altars, in fact a whole set of liturgical furnishings, made of Perspex® [Poly(methyl methacrylate)] have been made, installed, removed, and given away! I remember the lectern.
  • ...made of...

    ...um, what is perspex?
    (Or, do I want to know?)
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Perspex® [Poly(methyl methacrylate)] : An acrylic plastic, generally in sheets of pastel or neon clolours, as in this case. I think the left side of the web page shows a corner of the altar for some reason they don't show any of the furnishings they seem so pleased with, the artist is shown looking through a sculpture of the same material.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    There was a parish in town that once had a Plexiglas altar and lectern. They built a new church and didn't take any of that with them, thankfully.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    Richard MixRichard Mix January 8
    Posts: 1,407
    Perhaps in some circles the eye-rolling phrase goes "Does a traditionalist consider the Pope Catholic?"
    The real question is "can you be pope and not?"