The Grinch of Advent offers you these reminders about the season
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,479
    1) MUSICAM SACRAM 66. Sorry Organists
    2) Gaudete is not Gaudete.
    3) If you do the EF, then NO RORATE CAELI INTROIT FOR YOU this year.

    Any fellow grinches care to chirp in with more?
    Thanked by 2JonathanLC igneus
  • re: #3 --- this is true unless there is a "rorate mass" on a Saturday.

    I have seen people doing this on weekdays as well - is this allowed?
  • FWIW, the GRIM contradicts MS 66

    In Advent the use of the organ and other musical instruments should be marked by a moderation suited to the character of this time of year, without expressing in anticipation the full joy of the Nativity of the Lord.

    In Lent the playing of the organ and musical instruments is allowed only in order to support the singing. Exceptions, however, are Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), Solemnities, and Feasts.
    Thanked by 1JonathanLC
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,830
    Yup. # 313.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,479
    If one wants to implement sacred music in the best and truest sense in the OF, one is careful to be true to MS in every way. If I'm going to quote a document to try to get clerics to do the right thing (and sing everything), I'm going to follow it to the letter.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,479

    this is true unless there is a "rorate mass" on a Saturday.


    I meant this in terms of its normal Sunday placement... obviously there are other times in which this Introit might be sung... but it's most iconic place is Advent IV - which doesn't occur for our EF friends this year.
    Thanked by 1Settefrati93
  • It will nevertheless be the Introit for Ember Saturday whence the Introit originally came (Advent IV was one of the Sundays without Mass formular in the earliest sacramentaries, because Ember Saturday Mass with its seven lessons, possibly numerous ordinations, starting after None would not have been over until early on Sunday).

    Re Rorate masses on weekdays: There are some regions which have an indult for Rorate masses on weekdays of advent other than Saturday; e.g. Germany and Austria AFAIK.
  • Carol
    Posts: 115
    Went through the rectory office on my way to the choir loft the other afternoon and got the reminder "Remember- No "O Come O Come Emmanuel till Dec. 17th" from my pastor. Already discussed this in another post, so although I am nostalgic I will be in compliance. Reminder did stick in my craw, though! I am tempted to sing folk hymn(?) "The King of Glory Comes the Nation Rejoices" just to get even but of course I won't since he's right and I am wrong.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,830
    I know a choir that will definitely sing OCOCE for the entrance hymn all 4 Sundays.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • >> I know a choir that will definitely sing OCOCE for the entrance hymn all 4 Sundays.
    yes, and imagine what a fitting sense of longing this creates among the faithful for the arrival of Christmas! :)
    Thanked by 2canadash igneus
  • If you want to be really pedantic about OCOCE, then you should only be allowed to sing 1 verse of it on the 17th and that would be O come thou Wisdom.

    In fact, if one is so keen on details like this, one shouldn't be singing hymns at all at Mass but Propers, thus making any discussion about what to sing when, a non starter.
    Thanked by 3eft94530 francis dad29
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,081
    If you want to be really pedantic about OCOCE, then, in fact you should only be allowed to sing 1 verse of it on the 17th and that would be O come thou Wisdom.


    We sing this at home as part of family prayers, we add the each verse over the days of the great O antiphons, the children love it... Oh we sing it in Latin, come to think of it my children may not be familiar with the English version...
    Thanked by 2Carol Vilyanor
  • Carol
    Posts: 115
    My mother set our Advent wreath in the middle of the dining room table and before dinner each night we lit the wreath and sang "OCOCE." I did the same with my 2 sons. We sang it every day of Advent and never got tired of it! I still say those of you who get sick of it are probably providing music for multiple Masses each weekend. And OCOCE beats many of the alternative Advent hymns for the mere mortals who have no access to chant, so far.
  • Much of liturgy is repetition of the very familiar. Examples range from the Roman Canon, which has borne daily repetition for many centuries, to the Angelus, whose repetition thrice daily has sustained many of the pious faithful.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Carol
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,791
    I wonder why so much concern about this simple carol. This is mass, not Divine Office, so who cares and why should they? MS? It has about as much authority as a Walmart ad. Liturgically, heaven and earth have passed away since that was written and it has been superseded by GIRM and the authority given to the conferences of bishops. I suspect that may get worse, given the recent statements coming from Rome.

    I did OCOCE this a.m. for its one-time appearance during Advent. The sky didn't fall, Our Lady of Fatima didn't torch the world, and mass suicides by trads hanging from the loft with mantillas wound tightly around their necks did not occur. No breviary burnings outside and no weeping and gnashing of teeth were heard by the faithful. All in all, it was a fairly normal and uneventful first Sunday of Advent.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,349
    Oh, please, Charles. MS has more authority than a Wal-Mart ad, and more authority than letters from Argentine bishops on adultery, too. MS happens to fall into line with its predecessor (Roman) documents on music for the Mass--which makes it authoritative, assuming "tradition" remains important.

    Conversely, those documents which advance or endorse "not-tradition" are, ipso facto, NOT authoritative. This shouldn't rise to the level of 'huh?' for a guy with Orthodox grounding....
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,791
    You've got to be kidding, or doing wishful thinking. Authority has been given to the conferences of bishops and Pope Francis is even extending that authority to translations - not a good idea, I think, but he's doing it. Some folks pick out an older document that says what they like, and pretend it still has force behind it. MS doesn't. It is superseded by more current rules.

    Orthodox don't believe in documents. Must be a Latin thing.

    An interesting side note. I talked with an Orthodox priest a while back - OCA Orthodox, to be exact. He said a difference between Orthodox and Catholic practice is that Orthodox tradition lives within each member of the church. It isn't dependent on bishops and that a bishop who teaches contrary to that Orthodoxy will be removed. I like that approach. Far better, it seems, than vesting too much power in the hands of too few people.
  • As for non-Saturday Rorate Masses, they seem to be allowed, just unusual. In the OF, they can only be celebrated if some “pastoral advantage calls for it.”

    EF: In my hand-missal, under the common of the BVM, it says that votive Masses are not allowed in Advent other than the Mass Rorate cœli of the BVM. Under that Mass, it says “The Gloria is not said, except on Saturdays.” (Angelus Press Missal, p. 1029)

    OF: “On days when there occurs an Obligatory Memorial or on a weekday of Advent up to and including December 16, of Christmas Time from January 2, and of Easter Time after the Octave of Easter, Masses for Various Needs and Occasions and Votive Masses are in principle forbidden. If, however, some real necessity or pastoral advantage calls for it, in the estimation of the rector of the church or the Priest Celebrant himself, a Mass appropriate to the same may be used in a celebration with the people.” (GIRM 376, emphasis added)
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,349
    Well, we are certainly in the land of make-believe if we actually grant that "Bishops' Conferences" have any sort of power, no matter WHO conjures up that idea. (And I remind you that the conjurer in this case has a number of other....ahhh...interesting scribblings.)

    A Bishop--in his own Diocese--is the ruler, lawmaker, judge, and jury. No "conference" has the authority to 'rule' over a Bishop. But we digress....

    I don't "pick a doc" that I like; in fact, the entire corpus of Roman Catholic 'sacred music' documents from ~300AD through MS all say (roughly) the same things. You know the drill: Chant is primary, organ is best, beauty, goodness, universality, polyphony....all that stuff.

    Some may propose that ALL those documents and teachings are now overturned by a conference of bishops, or by some bunch of bureaucrats in Rome--but that is as impossible as a court ruling that homosexuals are "married."

    So you Orthodox have less-filled libraries!! Economy counts, eh?
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,791
    You live in a traditionalist dream world. Organs in 300 A.D.? They were not allowed in the liturgy at that time.That Supreme Pontiff you folks go on about can delegate powers as he wishes. A succession of them have done so and created a different operating model than the one in effect in earlier times. Nowhere did I say it is good or that I like it, but it is what it is. The bishops vote, adopt, and send to Rome for final approval. Even more, it seems this pope is undoing the work accomplished by Benedict XVI. Benedict tried to implement standards for liturgy rubrics and translations. Those trad fallout shelters may not be as safe as you think.

    Orthodox libraries. You mean we don't have the ravings and nit-pickings of idle Scholastics? Good!
    Thanked by 2PaxMelodious Liam
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,791
    Just as a side note to previous posts. When I want to promote chant and good sacred music, I find appealing to documents is the least effective approach producing the poorest results. When I argue based on the atmosphere and mood it will create, the type of people it will attract, and the effects on offerings, I accomplish much more.
  • gee, and to think it hasn't been a month yet since we got a refresher

    Besides Be Polite
    there was this

    Write with future readers in mind.
    Be helpful and friendly. Write informatively and clearly for the good of the questioner and for the good of later readers. Stay on topic. [...]
  • We sing this [OCOCE] at home as part of family prayers, we add the each verse over the days of the great O antiphons, the children love it... Oh we sing it in Latin . . .


    Same here.

    Ours is one of those parishes who began the Advent season with OCOCE for the entrance yesterday.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • There is SO MUCH WORSE we can do than OCOCE
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • I don't know Settefrati... after reading some of the posts about how wrong it is to use OCOCE before 12/17, I'm inclined to stop singing Ave Maria except on the Annunciation. Just to be consistent.

    :)
  • >> Ours is one of those parishes who began the Advent season with OCOCE for the entrance yesterday.

    same here.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,650
    I don't know Settefrati... after reading some of the posts about how wrong it is to use OCOCE before 12/17, I'm inclined to stop singing Ave Maria except on the Annunciation. Just to be consistent.
    You mean that on Advent IV (if you celebrate it), you wouldn't sing the Ave Maria at its appointed place in the Offertory?

    Just sayin'     :)
    Thanked by 1Settefrati93
  • Probably would have to recto-tone just to indicate my disagreement with using the text outside of the Annunciation...

    On a more serious note, I wouldn't mind for directors / pastors to decide that is how they want to handle it in their own situation. We all make calls on what we are willing to do. What concerns me is the "this is the only possibly correct viewpoint to have" approach some appear to take.

    But yes, I'll stop being snarky now!!
    Thanked by 1Settefrati93
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,650
    Advent IV - Mass propers (Liber Usualis)

    Introit: Rorate caeli
    Gradual: Prope est Dominus
    Alleluia verse: Veni Domine
    Offertory: Ave Maria
    Communion: Ecce virgo concipiet

    Given that it is explicitly appointed to be used in the Propers for Advent IV, I find it unusual, or at least interesting, that one might disagree with the use of the Ave Maria text outside of the Annunciation. The only part of the text that occurs at the Annunciation is the very first part: Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.

  • Correct me if I am wrong, but on Advent IV it only uses "Ave Maria, gratis plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesus. "
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,650
    That is essentially correct. The 1961 LU omits "Jesus".
    Thanked by 1Settefrati93
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,349
    My dear Charles (we are being polite and loving!!!)

    The point was that the documents re-affirm what excellent musicians like you have known: use good stuff. The docs merely lend definition to "good stuff."

    Some Popes are wrong, of course.

    (And I know you didn't really mean to be nasty and chop up my commentary by pointing out that organs were not utilized in 300 AD.)

    Love, but no kissing!!!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,791
    I believe the people who post here do try to use good stuff. Even if still in effect, I wouldn't put too much faith in documents, Rome, or the Vatican. Those are fickle friends who will betray you when convenient. I think they have betrayed all of us in recent times.

    Polite and loving? LOL. One of my favorites on that topic is W.C. Fields who said, "I am free of all prejudice. I hate everyone equally." I think Fields actually meant it.
    Thanked by 1Settefrati93
  • CH, forgive me if I confused the issue. I was being ironic. I have every intention of using Ave Maria frequently and often, regardless of whether or not it appears explicitly in the text of Mass. It was a larger point about not being quite so literal when it comes to texts and their applicability.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 323
    However much OCOCE is the right amount, when your college plays a recording of bells playing the tune every hour on the hour for the entirety of Advent, it's definitely enough to drive one to insanity. Especially with Finals around the corner. Thanks be to God I am now off campus.

    It's even worse than when the school sings the Salve Regina slower than a snail riding on a spate of molasses across a glacier in January.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,411
    The sugar in the molasses would only lower the freezing point I should think, making for better lubrication. (I do hope future searchers for the term "grinch" in the archives will get something out of this).
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,349
    W C Fields is my hero.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Last Sunday we started singing Alma Redemptoris Mater after Mass, and Salve Regina will have a well deserved rest until after Pentecost.

    I programmed OCOCE for next Sunday because it's the last scheduled "student" Mass of the year.

    Molasses has a very low freezing point (below -45F) and can be mixed with sand and used on winter roads. But its high viscosity is caused by the impurities, and the viscosity increases logarithmically with decreasing temperature. A molasses metronome could be devised... for cold chapter houses and chapels... along the lines of the pitch viscosity experiment.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Richard Mix

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