Your Least Favourite Composers
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Francis

    I don't disagree . . . the point of my mirroring remark is merely that people liking or not liking the work of [N] is not necessarily relevant to the quality of that work, and certainly not dispositive.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    yes... you are spot on there. However, am I mistaken or did Mozart himself dismiss his entire body of work to one Gregorian chant?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482

    Art appeals differently to different minds. I don't think admitting this is adolescent, but mature.


    Quite right.

    Why do I like Byrd more than Tallis or Josquin? Why do I like English Baroque more than German Baroque? Why do I like TNG more than DS9?

    De gustibus, natch.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    The renowned Haydn was often moved to tears at listening to the children of the London charity schools sing the psalms together in unison according to the Gregorian style; and the great master of musicians and composers, Mozart, went so far as to say that he would rather be the author of the Preface and Pater Noster, according to the same style, than of anything he had ever written. These are but a few of the numerous encomiums passed upon this sacred chant by men who were so eminently qualified to constitute themselves judges.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Mozart would work chant melodies into his instrumental works - which shouldn't surprise anyone aware of his legendary powers of improvisation. One example I am familiar with is the second movement of his first horn concerto, where if memory serves he worked a Holy Week chant line into it. Had Mozart been born when and near where JS Bach was born, I think he and Bach would have recognized each other's genius.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Choirparts
  • packardgrrl
    Posts: 16
    Cary Landry, hands down. How can you take someone seriously when the only difference in a verse is one word (Abba, Father, Peace if Flowing Like A Reviser and Only a Shadow for starters).

    Runner up: Jean Anthony Grief. I was an organist at my parish when "We Are The Light of the World" came out. The verses had the same two chords and I had to use quieter stops for the pedal so that it didn't sound like a clock chiming the hour.
    Thanked by 1Brian Michael Page
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    They had unquestionable technical skill, but the music of the early Romantics (Chopin, Schumann) has never been my cup of tea except in rare instances.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Since living composers aren't allowed in this list, I don't have to mention my loathing for nearly the entire corpus of John Rutter.

    I agree with most of the group here, who dislike Mozart in the liturgy. I'm not fond of his work outside the liturgy either.

    Leonard Bernstein being deceased, I can mention that I never want to sing the Chichester Psalms again.
  • Brian Michael Page
    Posts: 157
    I was going to say just about anyone whose music got its start in "Glory and Praise" or "Gather", but they're not composers. They're just songwriters.
    BMP
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Brian Michael Page
    Posts: 157
    Packardgrrl, I only heard one organist do justice to the "We Are the Light of the World" ditty you mentioned, and that was Alex Peloquin (yes, C. Alexander "Mass of the Bells" Peloquin - he was music director at the cathedral in my diocese, SS. Peter and Paul in Providence, RI). He used it as a recessional hymn, opened up the organ avec mixtures, transposed it to E minor, and a lot less legato, using an improvised accompaniment only Alex could come up with.
    BMP
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I am not fond of Bach fugues, although I like some of his other works. Generally, I don't like fugues by anyone. I would agree with comments above on some of our more contemporary composers, particularly those who produce church music.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Besides a lengthy list of really awful church composers, I would add Ricahrd Strauss, Saint-Saens, and such to this list. I love Schubert, except for his twaddly G-Major mass, which is in all the vogue in The Hymnal 1982 these days. It may surprise some that I do not at all like the overly lush stringiness that typifies most English symphonic writing. Considering symphonic and chamber music traditions I am definitely a Germanophile
    Thanked by 1francis
  • packardgrrl
    Posts: 16
    @Brian Michael Page: I am soooo envious! To have the Alexander Peloquin in your diocese!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    MJO

    Yes... we just sang a Saint-Saens Ave a few weeks ago, and as we finished at practice I spoke out, 'wow, schmaltzy, schmaltzy, schmaltzy'... my comment was met with looks of deer in the headlights...

    BTW... I think the term "Germanophile" boxes you into a corner... great intellect does not confine itself to Germans per se, but it is a shame that it appears to have developed that way.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Although some of my ancestors were German, I always operated on the principle that I wouldn't buy a car from a country that lost two world wars.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    That's good, Charles... and what are you driving these days? Unfortunately, their cars a built like a fugue.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Currently, a Toyota made in the U.S. I have found the quality to be better than most American or German cars.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    OK... cool... so the Japanese have won all their wars? (I'm not up to speed on their history.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    They pretty much have until WW II. What you don't want is French design, Italian construction, and German maintenance costs.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Oh... so the Japanese lost WW II also?

    (I thought you prefer French design in organ building??)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    They did. Germany lost WW I and II, and much of their territory in both wars.

    I have mixed feelings about German music. Some I like - Muffat, Walther, Reger, Wagner and such. Don't like Bach so much, especially the fugues. St. Matthew Passion is great and I like the trios and cantatas.

    German cars cost a fortune to buy and maintain, especially as they age. Visit the BMW and Mercedes dealerships and find out.

    Word of warning: Don't get your religion from Germany. It is in worse shape than the U.S.

    French organs are amazing, both Classical and Romantic.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    I don't 'buy' my religion from Germany... exclusively from the (authentic) magisterium. (Don't buy your religion from America either... it is just as defective...)

    have had a few "toys"... they are fun and dependable... but my most fun and exhilarating purchase was a 20 year old Bimmer... 1985 635CSI (cost in 2005, 3k)... it had 239,000 on the spedometer, I put another 50k on it before the body rusted out... the engine would have gone forever, I suspect. BMW's logo is an airplane moniker... because they first built airplane engines,,, that cannot fail.

    The first key to the meaning of the BMW logo are its colors: white and blue are the colors of the State of Bavaria in Germany, home of BMW. A 1929 BMW ad depicts the BMW emblem, complete with the four colored quadrants, in a spinning airplane propeller.

    So, when I drove my 5 speed inline 6, it was like flying an airplane (except on the ground... my children will testify to this truth).
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I take it you haven't looked at the newer ones. Too many plastic parts that fail and service costs are enormous.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    I also developed the catchphrase... "drive art". the 1985 was a beautiful design which did not change over decades. The new stuff is terrible in looks, although I do not know the 'quality' thereof in it's engineering. Mine was a tank, although a rusted one at that... wish i still had it.

    my mechanic was a previous employee of a BMW dealership... 1/10th the cost in service and repairs. never go to a dealer. not even for a toyota.

    pics

    https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars/1985/bmw/635csi/101458515

    (well, we certainly hijacked this thread... i wouldn't be surprised if this all gets slashed in the name of keeping focused... but it was fun nonetheless... tnx CW)
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    The older ones were built well and lasted. I remember when they were reliable and popular student cars but that's been some time ago.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    It's sort of an adage (which I really am loathe to admit) that, other than RR, the British have never made a reliable car. The Jaguars (before they were bought out by Ford, who turned them into hideous and gaudy monsters) were beautiful cars to behold as they wafted serenely down the streets. I once knew a lady who owned one and asked her how she liked such a beautiful car. Her response was, 'oh, it's the most wonderful car to drive - on the way to the repair shop and back'.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    MJO... i love the 007 model... AM
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    back to original post... i still cannot take mozart unless i am playing it. it is... entertaining... (after all, this thread is under 'amusements')
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Jackson, I had some friends here who were all British car collectors. Those cars had electrical headlight wiring systems made by Lucas Industries. Their motto was, "get home before dark."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Francis, I can listen to Mozart but I rarely found him suitable for use in church.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Meanwhile, back to least favourite composers -

    I have never been enthused over Ives's music, clever as it was/is. I was, though, amused by his famed 'Variations on America' - two or three times... after that - please, not again... ever. People who seem to think that circus music on the organ is clever are incredible clowns who deserve all the rotten tomatoes upon which we could ever lay our hands..

    Nor could I be said to be much of an admirer of Samuel Barber or Leonard Bernstein.

    Then, one has always been astonished at the fuss over Aaron Copland.

    Then, there is the 'music' of Karl-Heinze Stockhausen, who 'wrote' an utterly bewildering concerto for helicopter.
    There are/were great composer-artists of the XXth century, but such 'mad scientists' were not among them.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    I'll always remember one encounter with Stockhausen's music - far from my first such - when I realized with a shock that I was experiencing the same pleasure from Klavierstück XIII that Bizet gave me as a child. You'd be quite mistaken to write him off.

    On the other hand, "overly lush stringiness that typifies most English symphonic writing" reminds me of the struggle to come up with a definition of 'Anglican music' in Anglican-musician-l's early days. Instead of the obvious, music only an Anglican could love, they went instead with … Byrd.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Richard -
    Thanks for the suggestion. I'll have to give Klavierstuck XIII a hearing. Perhaps he was having a daft day when the helicopter concerto was spawned. Or should one consider it an interesting experiment in the phenomenology of every day environmental sound - although the 'sounds' in question are technically what the laws of physics would define as 'noise', not musical tones?

    I don't quite understand your comments about Anglican church music, and don't quite know what you mean by 'music that only an Anglican could love'.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    Nothing against Machault and the B minor mass - quite the contrary! - though they're not even as "Anglican" as Byrd. But since we're admitting to prejudices in this thread, I'm a recovering das Land ohne Musik anglophobe who still squirms a little at Vaughn Williams and sometimes looks askance at Charles Wood, John Stainer or, God forbid, Barnby. Pearsall and Elgar though are of course honorary Germans ;-) Stanford & Parry get passes too; my Damascus road with Britten was the waiting for a breeze scene in the first 1951 version of Billy Budd. A bit of a disappointment to find how conventionally 'effective' the 1964 version became!
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    honorary Germans


    I know what an honorary Irishman is, but what's an honorary German?
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    I know what an honorary Irishman is, but what's an honorary German?

    Pearsall and Elgar studied Continental musicians extensively and Elgar's harmonic language, in particular, (though highly individual in usage) is unmistakably drawn from the German Romantics. Compared to more "home-grown" English composers, their style is distinctly different. (Compare Elgar to, say, Sullivan.)
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Richard -
    I still don't know what you mean by 'music that only an Anglican could love'. I can think some music that only a Catholic would love, par example, those gushy, purple, sobbing three hanky, maudlin Victorian Marian songs, not to mention not so much Palestrina, but that particular genre known as "Palestrina warmed over' (and over, and over) till distilled of any character that P would recognise - other than by turning over in his grave. Not to mention the 'music' that by far most Catholics have fallen for these days.
    So, for our part, what is 'music that only an Anglican could love'?. Would you have in mind something like 'Thine be the Glory' sung to Maccabaeus by King's? Or did you have something else in mind?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I'm not sure Elgar would welcome his adoption by the Germans.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    Jackson, you're not letting me off easily, but "gushy, purple, sobbing three hanky, maudlin Victorian" describes Sullivan's sacred music as well as the aforementioned Stainer and Barnby. Now I am forced to blush and admit "There is joy in the presence of the Angels" from The Prodigal Son is my guilty pleasure. Just don't force me to say the name of that composer of what my less reverent colleagues call 'rut-Gott'.

    It was rather Elgar who adopted Germany, and Pearsall even took up German residence. William Sterndale Bennett is another composer who's better than I expected; being a student of Schumann.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Stanford paid a great debt to Brahms, which he himself acknowledged, and his students exhibit said Continental influence to a greater or lesser extent. Vaughan Williams's orchestration is highly French in origin, from his studies with Ravel (though used in an individual fashion, of course). Of those "home-grown" English composers, S.S. Wesley is likely the only one who does not fall into sub-par cliché.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Richard -
    I'll have to agree with you about Sullivan, Stainer, & ilk. This is one Catholic soul with an Anglican aesthetic sensitivity who can't believe that church music could have fallen so low.

    And, speaking of least favourite composers, I have never understood people's attraction to 'Pomp and Circumstance', which seems to me neither pomp nor circumstance, but so much gaudy and pretentious hot air. To me, no one has really done pomp and circumstance quite like the baroque masters did with their trumpets and tympani. With such an example before them, why did anyone after them even bother.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    This sounds rather pompy and circumstancy to me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ1SPFA5bEI
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I guess I'll have to get used to the idea that Elgar adopted the Germans?
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Charles, those reeds make the Notre-Dame chamades in Cochereau's era sound positively tame.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I know. Wish I had some. I suspect in person you could feel those bass notes.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 623
    MJO, I think perhaps that "music only an Anglican could love" refers to hymns such as "I Sing a Song of the Saints of God" and other such Anglican hymnody which tends toward sappiness or Victorian over-sentimentality. As much as I love the music itself for "In the Bleak Midwinter," the text borders on the banal. "Long ago, snow snow snow, all the farm animals go moo," and so on. That said, I love medieval and renaissance sacred music in the English tradition.

    Edit: Yes, Roman Catholic liturgy these days often makes use of a great deal of bad music. We by no means have a monopoly on the practice though.
  • Elmar
    Posts: 506
    I guess I'll have to get used to the idea that Elgar adopted the Germans?
    In spite of the running gag about 'which Ave Verum' I'll keep the middle letter of by name.
  • Jehan_Boutte
    Posts: 264
    My least favorite composer... I was going to say "Mozart", since I really don't like his sacred music at all. But I think I would go for Joseph Gélineau.
    Thanked by 2Chris Garton-Zavesky francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    I once had a boss (priest) who really liked Taize chant. Whenever he asked me to use one at Mass, I would simply respond, 'Don't Taize me bro!' (It didn't stop it from going into the liturgy, unfortunately)
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