A bit of research, please. (communion hymn survey)
  • Jackson,

    My day in the court, accused of butchering the language! Sorry. Yes, it should be rendering (Which has nothing to do with extraordinary rendition!)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 338
    For those worried about the authorship of Adoro Te, the overwhelming consensus today is that Thomas is in fact the author. If you want to review the argument, you can consult Jean-Pierre Torrell's St. Thomas Aquinas, vol. 1: The Person and His Work, pp. 132-136.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    the overwhelming consensus today is that Thomas is in fact the author.


    This thread, http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/13009/adoro-te-extra-syllable/p1

    I have not read the Torrell's book, but wonder if the author had read Connelly, and addressed the numerous doubts.

    i.e. It would be handy to find this Hymn in a Manuscript before the 14th c. before stating that the Author is St. Thomas, and how to explain the divergences in thought between the Hymn and the Summa.
  • ...the divergences in thought...

    Interesting!
    Could you elaborate for one who is not a Summa scholar?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Lord, enthroned in heav'nly splendour - Bryn Calfaria
    The Word of God, proceeding forth (Verbum supernum) - Mode VIII melody
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Interesting!
    Could you elaborate for one who is not a Summa scholar?


    I was referring to Connelly in the quote from his book, I am not a scholar of the Summa either, but recognise that Connelly had read all of the scholarly works on Hymns before starting his master piece.

    The quote is below, until someone can explain these divergences AND explain why a Missal reference attributing the 'Adoro te' to St. Thomas is relevant in a section full of other mistakes...

    Some have also thought that there are divergencies of thought and expression between the Summa of St. Thomas and the 'Adoro te'. The theologian who wrote 'In hoc sacramento null set deceptio' and 'In hoc sacramento veritatis sensus non decipitur circa ea quorum judicium ad ipsum pertinet' would they think scarcely have written, even in poetry, 'Visus, tactus, gustus in te fallitur'. On the other hand there is the strictest possible correspondence between the Summa and the 'Lauda Sion'.
    Moreover the workmanship seems different from that of St. Thomas, and the feeling of the hymn, beautiful though it is, seems to reflect quite a different soul from that of the writer of the last verses of each of St. Thomas's compositions.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Hey there.

    So I just don't think HWAT is a faithful translation. Beginning with v. 1.

    GHIH is much better, tho not one of Hopkin's great poems.
  • Hey there.... Beginning with v. 1.

    So, beginning with v. 1 -
    Adoro te devote latens Veritas (or Deitas)
    Humbly I adore thee, Verity unseen
    Te quae sub his formis vere latitas (or ...sub figuris...)
    Who thy glory hidest 'neath these shadows mean
    Tibi se cor meum totum subicit
    Lo, to thee surrendered, my whole heart is bowed,
    Quia te contemplans totum defict.
    Tranced as it beholds thee, shrined within the cloud.

    I don't pretend to be the Latin scholar that our honourable Kathy is, but it doesn't seem to me that, with the possible exception of the liberty taken with 'lo, to thee surrendered', 'tranced', and 'shrined within the cloud', this is lacking in faithfulness to the Latin. It is admirably graceful and mirrors beautifully the original - whoever wrote it.

    I do believe that veritas is considered the better reading than deitas, and that, obviously, 'verity' is a more profound reading than the rather dull and generic 'deity', or maybe even 'Godhead', though 'Godhead', although it's a little clunky, is certainly better than 'deity'.

    While I genuinely like GMH's version, it seems to me that the Douglas-Pusey version ('Humbly...') is a more gracious and musical one. Though I regard this as objectively true and self-evident, I'll begrudgingly grant that perhaps that's because I grew up with it and it just rolls naturally from my lips. But, I would never say a bad word about GMH's.

    DYTTWCEB?
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Oh! That's a different Humbly... than I know.

    Yes, this is wonderful.

    "Shadows" is weak--why not say figures?--and "mean" and "cloud" are additions for the sake of rhyme. But obviously this is a superior and fluent translation.
  • Hmmm.
    Now I'm curious, Kathy.
    I didn't know that there was another 'Humbly'.
    (Humph! An imposter? a poseur?)
    Where did the one you know come from?
    Can you quote it?

    (This Douglas-Pusey version that I quote is from no. 204 in The Hymnal 1940.)

    ______________________________________

    Shadows versus figures -
    Hmmm -
    Who thy glory hidest 'neath these shadows mean
    or
    Who thy glory hidest 'neath these figures mean

    Don't you think that shadows is rhythmically smoother and more euphonius - and sings better?
    You're right, though, that shadows does seem weaker than figures?
    But, try singing ...'neath these figures mean. It just doesn't ring right to me.
    Hmm. Perhaps there is yet a better word? It's that ugly and stumbly '-igures' that bothers me.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Humbly I adore thee did, indeed, start out as a translation by John Mason Neale. His text can be found in the Collected Hymns, Sequences and Carols of John Mason Neale, which can be found in Google Books. I think the Hopkins translation would benefit from the substitution of a few lines from Neale. A few years back I posted a version of Adoro te which centoized Neale and Hopkins.
  • Thanks for ferreting this out, Orgelmeister -
    I have the Collected Hymns, Sequences... of JMN, so you'd think I would have checked it.

    I'll quote Neale's version here. One will note that it is quite different from the Pusey-Douglas version that I quoted above and which is in The Hymnal 1940.

    Here are both, Pusey-Douglas vs. Neale, for line by line comparison, Neale's being the italicised lines -

    Humbly I adore thee, Verity unseen
    Humbly I adore thee, hidden Deity,
    Who thy glory hidest 'neath these shadows mean
    Which beneath these figures art concealed from me
    Lo, to thee surrendered, my whole heart is bowed
    Wholly in submission thee my spirit hails
    Tranced as it beholds thee, shrined within the cloud.
    For in contemplating thee it wholly fails.

    Giving Neale his well-deserved due, I think it fairly apparent that Pusey's work is remarkably more sensitive, musical, and graceful.
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    At least you aren't forced to use the GIA/ICEL translation, it doesn't sound right. I suppose there's a reason for its number in the RitualSong Second Edition Hymnal.
  • ...it doesn't sound right...

    Right you are, Kyle!
    ...because it is without literary merit.
    It has but one virtue: it does manage, in verse, to be an almost exact translation.
    But that does not redeem its incredibly pedestrian, almost infantile syntax.
    It's rather like reading an artless rhyme from a Dick and Jane primer.
    Too, this version, as it appears at no. 556 in Worship IV, has the syllabification of the third line utterly wrong, obviously to accommodate the gratuitous omission of a neume and one of the podatuses found in the authentic melody.

    GIA and ICEL were literally 'scraping the bottom' with this unlettered version.
    They also get an 'F' for what they have done to the authentic melody and syllable placement in the third line.
    And! It wasn't even necessary!
    Thanked by 1KyleM18
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    MJO: Is that where they force it into a 4/4 measure like the rest?
    Oh, and add 110 to the Worship IV number, and you'll see why I find it humorous that they put this translation in.
  • Yes, Kyle, it is.
    I hadn't thought of it as 4/4, but I suppose you've uncovered their remarkably, brazenly, presumptuous and untutored rationale.
    It is plainchant, after all!
    Only a Catholic publisher (an important one, yet!) would perpetrate something so unscholarly as this and publish it with a straight face in what they vainly imagine to be a hymnal of note. Pity those unwitting souls who will cluelessly sing it.
  • oldhymnsoldhymns
    Posts: 229
    Noel, back to your original question:

    I learned the following five Communion hymns (among others) in Catholic elementary school in the years immediately preceding Vatican II. They were excellent, reverent hymns then and still are:
    1. O Lord, I Am Not Worthy
    2. Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All
    3. Sweet Sacrament Divine
    4. O Jesus Christ, Remember (Aurelia--in Westminster and Vatican II Hymnals)
    5. In This Sacrament, Sweet Jesus
  • Were I thinking of teaching children 5 hymns, I would want selections that offered a bit of versatility, since 5 hymns is probably near the total number you can reliable get a large group to commit to memory. Conveniently, I think there are listed on this thread a number of selections that will do quite nicely for all purposes for communion, for post-communion hymns of thanksgiving, and for Eucharistic hymns during adoration/processions. I will only say I would tend to pick mostly hymns that work well in English and also in Latin, thus opening the door to the Latin even if you begin with the English. Also, since we are speaking of children, I would pick things that have language and concepts that will make at least some sense to the children even at a young age, but offer enough depth that the meaning will unfold more deeply as they mature, thus giving them something of life long value.
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    I made my first communion on March 24, 1968. Some hymns I remember learning was;

    1. Jesus, Teach Me How To Pray
    2. Jesus, Thou Art Coming
    3. Soul of My Savior
    4. O Lord, I am Not Worthy
    5. O Sacrament Most Holy

    And while I don't remember learning Little White Guest, it had become very popular to the
    communion classes of St. Mary in the years that followed. I mention it here because when I joined St. Mary Choir about 10 years later it was still being sung by our communion classes.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Our school c.1980s sang lots of English Hymns, mainly Marian. I remember them when I hear them, but don't get the chance to sing them.

    As for communion hymns, I am sure my parish sang, c.1980
    Soul of my Saviour
    O Sacrament Most Holy

    We have also been asked to sing, after Mass,
    Jesus, Thou Art Coming

    We sing at the E.F. so don't get the chance to sing in English more than a few times a year. The 50 children at our Sunday Mass are growing up with chant instead.
  • davido
    Posts: 944
    I like the Neale translation of Adoro te because it is not too poetic. The original Latin is not very flowery. I'm not a Latin expert, but it seems rather short and to the point, decidedly non-flowery.
    I find the Pousey-Douglas and the GMH Adoro te translations to be flowery and consciously artistic. Plus the GMH version has some phrases that either sound silly to me or have unfortunate adult connotations.
  • PolskaPiano
    Posts: 255
    1. Some form of Taste and See
    2. Gift of Finest Wheat
    3. Some form of Adoro Te Devote in English
    4. Eat This Bread (Taize) - can be used to teach harmony or introduce those not familiar with antiphonal singing. Also ideal for singing while in the communion line. Also many parishes in the US are familiar with this hymn. Widely used.
    5. Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All
    6. Bonus suggestion- Panis Angelicus- perhaps Lambillotte
  • O Lord, I am not worthy was required for First Communion in a school where I worked.

    If I recall correctly, it was forbidden in another Catholic school where I worked, later.
  • 1. Soul of my Saviour (Pope John XXII, tr. Fr. E. Caswall, to ANIMA CHRISTI)
    2. Godhead here in hiding (St. Thomas Aquinas, tr. Fr. G. M. Hopkins SJ, to ADORO TE)
    3. Draw nigh and take/Draw near and take (modern version) (tr. J. M. Neale, to GUSTATE)
    4. Jesus, my Lord, my God, my all (Fr. F. W. Faber, to SWEET SACRAMENT)
    5. Sweet Sacrament divine (Fr. F. Stanfield, to DIVINE MYSTERIES)
    6. Let all mortal flesh keep silence (tr. G. Moultrie, to PICARDY)
    7. O Bread of Heaven (St. Alphonsus de Liguori, tr. Fr. E. Vaughan CSsR, to ST CATHERINE)
    8. I heard the voice of Jesus say (H. Bonar, to KINGSFOLD)
    9. Firmly I believe and truly (St. John Henry Newman, to DRAKES BROUGHTON)

    If you are in Australia, I would add this classic J. MacAuley (text)/R. Connolly (tune) hymn:
    10. By your priestly power, O risen Lord (J. MacAuley, to TRAVALLI)
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 548
    Since this thread is being resurrected – I think I can guess which “Humbly” Kathy was thinking of:

    Humbly, Lord, we worship you, our Eternal King.
    You who died to give us life, hear us as we sing. [Refrain]
    Jesus, God and Lord of all, come to us, we pray.
    Thus united in your love, may we live this day.

    [Verse 2]
    Jesus, Lord, we offer you ev'ry act this day.
    May we live our love for you and your will obey. [Refrain]

    [Verse 3]
    Lord, forgive us all our faults, others we forgive.
    May we strive with all our souls, Christian lives to live.[Refrain]

    [Verse 4]
    May we love you in each soul and each soul in you;
    One in our eternal goal, one in all we do. [Refrain]


    This is a 1973 text by Jeanne Frolick, SFCC, and is included in various OCP books, to the (plainchant) tune of Adoro Te.

    I will never forget a day I subbed for a last-chance Mass at another parish, one where the organist had to sing and it was always a 4-hymn sandwich. I had to pick the hymns and thought I’d put up the number for the true Adoro Te on the board, but found out too late that I’d hastily put up the number for that thing.
  • How about "Lord Enthroned in Heavenly Splendor" sung to ST OSMUND by Healey Willan!