Cardinal Sarah's remarks clarified
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978

    Why not? I would think that clergy in particular would be interested in the history of their profession.


    I think the nature of "vocations" has changed. The old priests were in it for life and many burned themselves out for the Lord. Many priests and even bishops today are corporate employees. They have days off, generous vacations, don't pay for housing, and insurance. They have fun money for activities many parishioners certainly can't afford. Now they have retirement benefits and are expected to retire at a certain age. Nothing wrong with having some benefits and free time to refresh and return ready to work. But there is a business mindset present and they work for a corporation. Granted, there are still some priests who are exceptions.
    Thanked by 4ClergetKubisz ClergetKubisz JulieColl hilluminar
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    How many Catholics today have the experience of participating in a Mass offered ad Deum, versus apsidem?

    How many have the experience of singing or hearing Gregorian chant?

    How many have the experience of hearing in church polyphony from the great renaissance masters?

    How many have the experience of kneeling for Holy Communion?

    How many have the experience of kneeling during a silent Canon of the Mass?

    How many experience silence at all during the Mass?

    How many Catholics have ever heard a sermon on the four last things?

    How many have ever heard that the Mass is first and foremost, a propitiatory sacrifice for sin?


    I like these questions, hmm and I wonder what the answers would be say in France at the following dates, 1970, 1980, 2000 and say 2020. I think by 2020 most of the answers among practicing Catholics will be YES!
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Speaking of the hermeneutic of rupture, an NCR journalist, James Hug, is calling for new liturgical resources to implement Pope Francis vision of immediate social and cultural change which he called for in Laudato Si since

    "The liturgical resources for developing and expressing that kind of mature spiritual consciousness and growth, however, are difficult to find" and "until these materials can be developed and made widely available, the challenge given by Pope Francis to nurture this spirituality must be taken up by liturgical planners and celebrants locally."

    https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/eco-catholic/laudato-si-and-liturgical-work-ahead

    So, is this the next frontier in the postconciliar liturgical reform: the creation of new liturgies to complement every new papal teaching?

    New! New! New! In fact, this is all so new and so urgent that we can't even wait for ICEL or the USCCB or any centralized agency to create these new liturgical resources, so let's farm this job out to the locals. Every parish can create its own liturgy to celebrate Laudato Si and Amoris Laetitia!!! How thrilling.

    I believe this is what is called the balkanization of the liturgy.

    In his essay, James Hug-A-Tree describes all that he does on a personal level to implement Laudato Si, and, surprise! surprise!, isn't it just incredible that I, a traditional EF Catholic, am also an organic gardener and have compost piles and recycling bins and buy my dairy and meat products from local farmers? Can you believe that an ultraconservative who loves the Latin Mass and the Baltimore Catechism also weeps about the dying coral reefs and the pesticides being dumped in the Great South Bay and even sometimes (when nobody's looking) talks to trees?

    What's wrong with that picture, and how is it possible that a green/environmentalist/ sustainable gardener/anti-GMO/Monsanto/big corporations/subsidiarity-loving/avid recycler/flower child/semi-hippy like myself can be perfectly satisfied with the ancient texts and chants of the Usus Antiquior to express my love of the Creator and His magnificent works and to pray for the renewal of His creation?

    Guess I don't have "mature spiritual consciousness and growth". Apparently, only progressives have the necessary credentials to pray to the Lord of Heaven and Earth for the proper care of this planet.
    Thanked by 3Vilyanor Spriggo Elmar
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Thanked by (3): ClergetKubisz, ClergetKubisz, JulieColl

    that's impressive

    I think those are excellent questions, as well, Julie. I also think it would be nice for people to experience the Pater Noster without holding hands, and without running around the church like chickens with their heads chopped off, trying to shake everyone's hand, after.
    Thanked by 3ClergetKubisz JulieColl Elmar
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I tried to thank you twice, but it didn't work this time.
    Thanked by 3CCooze JulieColl Elmar
  • WGS
    Posts: 300
    For my mother's O.F. funeral in 1995 (age 95), I had included the Dies Irae in the printed program as a prelude. However, the kindly, elderly, retired, orthodox Jesuit celebrant said "Go ahead and sing it in the right place." YMMV
    Thanked by 3CCooze Olivier chonak
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,309
    It was used at the funeral of the Empress Zita in place of the interlectionary chants, and it was the Mozart to boot. Gosh, how that should have been a Requiem Mass properly speaking, but to do that in that cathedral would have angered the government & indicated that maybe Vatican II wasn’t all that after all…
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    What's wrong with that picture, and how is it possible that a green/environmentalist/ sustainable gardener/anti-GMO/Monsanto/big corporations/subsidiarity-loving/avid recycler/flower child/semi-hippy like myself can be perfectly satisfied with the ancient texts and chants of the Usus Antiquior to express my love of the Creator and His magnificent works and to pray for the renewal of His creation?

    Guess I don't have "mature spiritual consciousness and growth". Apparently, only progressives have the necessary credentials to pray to the Lord of Heaven and Earth for the proper care of this planet.


    Now just for fun, let's see who can assemble a set of Propers for a Votive Mass for the Stewardship of Creation (man that sounds dumb, but you get the point).
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Votive Mass for the Stewardship of Creation

    Introit: Quis est locus iste, Oosterhuis

    Ordinary: Mass of Creation, Haugen

    Responsorial Psalm: Haec dies quam fecit Dominus, Willan, arr. Walker

    Offertory: Deus multorum nominum Farrell

    Communion: Unus spiritui sumus Wise
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    "the challenge given by Pope Francis to nurture this spirituality must be taken up by liturgical planners and celebrants locally."


    How appropriate to the whole 'spirit' of Laudato Si Now we can all sit at our computers, with the air-conditioning on / heating on, with various unnecessary lights on etc. and spend a few days writing something. We will of course need regular inputs of coffee sourced from distant places, as well as food shipped from the four corners of the globe. Or course our offices will need to be cleaned and the rubbish taken away by some immigrant on the minimum wage at best. All the while producing something patronising to those that are suffering from western countries use of global resources.

    I would have thought that Pope Francis would have realised that the best leadership possible will be by example, but once again all with have is a set of suggestions of how other people should use less energy!
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Spot on, tomjaw. And just think of all the paper this new liturgical enterprise will consume.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    Oh come on now! I LOVE trees... they make perfect hymnals, scores and missals.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Speaking of trees reminds me of this tongue twister from the Gospel reading a couple of weeks ago:

    Omnis arbor bona fructus bonos facit mala autem arbor fructus malos facit non potest arbor bona fructus malos facere neque arbor mala fructus.

    I dare you to say that twice as fast as you can.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Omnis arbor bona fructus bonos facit mala autem arbor fructus malos facit non potest arbor bona fructus malos facere neque arbor mala fructus.
    I think it works better with punctuation, which they didn't have at the time, of course.

    Word games!!!

    It has been claimed that the Latin sentence "malo malo malo malo" means "I prefer to be a bad man in an apple tree, rather than a mast (of a ship)." I could never figure out how the second "malo" works, since "malo" the verb doesn't take the dative or ablative. Sounds impressive, though!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo
    Thanked by 2gregp ClergetKubisz
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcFrImouGg8

    Oh, and ... farewell Cardinal Sarah.
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