Cardinal Sarah's remarks clarified
  • Jani
    Posts: 386
    Well, the microphone is at the ambo. From whence the homily is read.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,099
    Well, the microphone is at the ambo. From whence the homily is read.


    And microphones are at the presider's chair, the altar, the lectern, the loft. They are everywhere. I turned all the microphones off in the choir loft.
    Thanked by 2Jani Salieri
  • johnmann - It seems one thing both extremes of the spectrum agree on and either gloat about or condemn is this supposed "slapping down" of Cardinal Sarah. I think that says more about the viewer of the situation than about the actual situation. One sees what one wants to see. Priests are still free to follow the Cardinal's worthy suggestion. Or choose not to. To my mind the Vatican correction seemed even-handed and necessary in response to the media hype (which, by the way, twisted the Cardinal's message - I would think that Cardinal Sarah himself would feel uneasy about the way his remarks were interpreted in some quarters). "Slapping down" implies a personal censure and animosity that I just don't see in the public document.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins CHGiffen
  • >> As for the matter of the term "Reform of the Reform" [...] The term has a poor meaning behind it because it implies that the reform itself was flawed.

    hmmm
  • Wouldn't a "slapping down" also involve an apology or a suspension or removal from someone's post? None of this has happened.

    I find the swirling around the clarification letter to be a sad reflection of the liturgical identity crisis we have been going through for decades. Challenge the assumed status quo, or even suggest licit options in a humble and fraternal way, and it seems to destabilize some illiberal clerics. Not surprising.

    The Holy Spirit must be in charge. Otherwise pettiness alone would have sunk this ship long ago.

    Let our faith be strengthened as we wait for the Lord. And it doesn't hurt to turn towards Him together. Why would it? There is more opportunity for clericalism when the priest is pushed into the role of talk show host/ entertainer. The progressives are really counterproductive on this one.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,895
    It wouldn't involve an apology or suspension or removal of someone's position if that person's superiors approved of the "slapping down."

    Yay, politics!
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    Congratulations. This post has reached a new low. That's hard to do on a discussion forum which has more than its fair share of plain nastiness and un-Christ-like behaviour.


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    Matthew 23:33
    Matthew 16:23
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    If it wasn't a slap-down, I'm sure we'll soon see Cardinal Sarah back to promoting ad orientem and reform of the reform, right? Any minute now, right?
    Thanked by 2JulieColl eft94530
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,905
    He did: he published the full text of his paper in English (and reportedly also in French) after the meeting.

    So whether the Pope criticized Cdl. Sarah or not, the Cardinal seems quite willing to put his message out for consideration.

    The critics of Cdl. Ratzinger's liturgical teaching (now being carried on by Cdl. Sarah) must be feeling frustrated inasmuch as no one has advanced convincing arguments to drive it from the field. And it's not surprising that frustrated people wish for an intervention by strong-willed authority to humiliate and even dismiss the troublemakers. There are similar emotions at play in the U.S. elections this year.
    Thanked by 2Spriggo CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    troublemakers


    Awww, what's wrong with troublemakers? I like troublemakers (within reason, of course). Sometimes our stasis needs to be questioned.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,099
    Julie, I have been making trouble for 68 years now, and have gotten quite good at it. ;-)
    Thanked by 2JulieColl francis
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,300
    trouble? did someone say trouble?
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    The excellent Joseph Shaw of LMS makes the point that rather than go to war over ad orientem worship and other issues in the Novus Ordo in OF parishes, it would be far simpler and more pastoral to bring in the Traditional Mass into the parish schedule.

    Good for him for getting down to brass tacks and speaking honestly! However I don't quite understand another statement he made:

    Those attached to the kind of liturgical participation brought in by the post-Conciliar reforms see, with varying levels of explicitness, worship ad orientem as a major step away from those reforms: and they are correct to do so. This is why attempts to introduce ad orientem can cause civil war in parishes.


    Not sure what he means by "the kind of liturgical participation brought in by the post-Conciliar reforms". We can't forget that the preconciliar Popes wanted an increase in liturgical participation in the Usus Antiquior. They wanted the people to say and sing all the responses, etc., so worship ad orientem does not in and of itself exclude active participation by the faithful by any means. It's a minor point, but just thought it needed to be said.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 1,513
    This is why attempts to introduce ad orientem can cause civil war in parishes.
    This surely is why Cardinal Nichols commented that it should not be left to the personal choice of the clergy. I would point out that under him the 'temporary' excresence has been removed, and the Cathedral's high altar has been reinstated in such a way that it can be used from either side. That the high standard of music, Gregorian, polyphonic, and cantor/congregation styles are all routinely displayed. And that each weekday there is an NO Mass in Latin.
    Thanked by 2Kathy CHGiffen
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,300
    The excellent Joseph Shaw of LMS makes the point that rather than go to war over ad orientem worship and other issues in the Novus Ordo in OF parishes, it would be far simpler and more pastoral to bring in the Traditional Mass into the parish schedule.
    amen and amen and amen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    The excellent Joseph Shaw again: @RorateCaeli The Sacra Liturgia conference has set the cause of the Reform of the Reform back by 20 years.

    Strange and sad at the same time that the Prefect of the CDW's humble appeal has provoked such an instantaneous and overwhelming reaction from bishops all over the world.

    I'm wondering where is the compassion in the Year of Mercy towards priests who want to celebrate ad Deum, versus apsidem. Who's accompanying Cardinal Sarah? Where's the path of accompaniment for the priests who want to fulfill his request?
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,068
    On the Chant Cafe, I've been noting some of the scriptural sources behind the ad orientem posture.

    It's an interesting problem. Since the Council, many have lauded the increased amount of Scripture available in the lectionary. But what have we lost? Here and elsewhere (Fr. Michael Joncas has written about this) many have mentioned that the scripture of the Propers has given way to personal reflections in hymns.

    In the question of posture, we see a scripturally-based practice going by the wayside, for reasons I can only think are merely social.
  • Julie,

    Jesus loved the Pharisees, and so he called them whitewashed sepulchers, which is how he "accompanied" them.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,099
    Being old enough to remember such things, we were told after Vatican II that the horrors of the Black Death created the darkness and obsession with eternal punishment in the Requiem mass. The Vatican II fathers wanted the mass for the dead to reflect the Resurrection of Christ, and to emphasize that we are people of the Resurrection, not the tomb.

    Chris, those Pharisees were misunderstood. They had bad childhoods.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    And what's the perfect compromise between preconciliar black and postconciliar white for funerals?

    Hint: They wear it in Monaco for funerals

    image

  • Liam
    Posts: 3,816
    I myself prefer violet trimmed in white for funerals.

    There's a specific reason for my preference for violet: it now partakes of the explicitly eschatological dimension of the season of Advent, not only of the (also very apt) penitential dimension.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JulieColl
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,224
    The Requiem is beautiful and bright if you look at it in whole, especially with the music! The Dies Irae is awesome and majestic, not frightening; I blame Mozart and Verdi for this association. I don’t think even the Mozart setting is appropriate for Mass.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl Vilyanor
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    The Final Judgement will be awesome and majestic.
    And frightening.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcFrImouGg8
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed. I Cor. 15:50
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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    By the way, speaking of apocalyptic things, it seems to me, unless I'm imagining it, that in Credo IV, there is a phrase which echoes the Dies Irae. Can anyone else find it in this excerpt?

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    The Dies Irae:
    image
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 736
    Hmm, perhaps that is part of why I enjoy Credo IV so very much.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JulieColl
  • Julie,

    Outside shot: from the second note on -do (of Quando) to the end of Judex?
    In the same way, from the second note of -vet (of (solvet) to the end of saeclum?
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,224
    Brilliant, isn’t?

    CGZ, sounds right.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    Thanks for pointing that out, CGZ; I didn't see that part. I was looking at "passus, et sepultus est" which sounds like the "Dies irae, dies illa."
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,747
    You want TUBA MIRUM???

    Try Britten's War Requiem. Dem tubas dey mirrin' all over the place.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVrS-1zjQb0

    And that's not a very good orchestra/chorus, either
    Thanked by 1Ben Yanke
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,747
    The Dies Irae is awesome and majestic, not frightening


    Are you referring to the Chant "Dies..."??
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,224
    Yes. I don’t think we should be frightened by the reality that Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. If we take it seriously and pray for God’s grace living in hope and charity, then it isn’t something to fear. The text and music are sobering to me, and I think that is the right attitude towards the event described. Plus, I think that is a proper use of “awesome.”

    I really think the reformers had in mind the orchestral settings.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,099
    I was chatting with another musician recently, who remarked on the number of compositions of the Dies Irae by major composers. She went on to say the Dies Irae has now disappeared for all practical purposes. I haven't heard it at a Catholic funeral in at least 30 years, maybe longer. It is effectively, gone.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,747
    Yah, well, I've sung it at several Catholic funerals over the last 10 years. It ain't gone yet.
  • My choristers have large portions of it memorized. It's not gone everywhere.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    We sing it 3-4 times a year (including this coming Saturday).
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,545
    Credo IV is subtitled 'Cardinalis' in 'Manuale Missae et Officiorum, Desclee, 1903'
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,895
    I thought the Dies Irae was prohibited in the NO Funeral Mass.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,816
    A pastor or bishop might effectively prohibit it, but it could otherwise be used at least as an alius aptus cantus, and perhaps even as an optional sequence (because it's still contained in current ritual books for the OF, if memory serves, though not the Missal or Lectionary themselves, it's arguably not suppressed but merely an optional sequence).
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 736
    It could easily be part of the "prelude" music before an OF funeral Mass.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,099
    I thought the Dies Irae was prohibited in the NO Funeral Mass.


    For any practical purpose, it is. Perhaps it could be used as "travelling music" or slipped in somewhere during the mass. The pastor just might call you on the carpet for it later.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    I haven't heard it at a Catholic funeral in at least 30 years, maybe longer. It is effectively, gone.


    This reminds me of what Stefan Heid wrote in Dom Alcuin Reid's book, Sacred Liturgy, Source and Summit of the Life and Mission of the Church. A paraphrase:

    When a Catholic student reading James Joyce has to Google the phrase: Introibo ad altare Dei, this is, as the French say of Eurodisney, evidence of a cultural Chernobyl.

    The same could be said of how the Dies Irae has almost vanished from the collective memory of Catholics.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,099
    You have to remember that "the collective memory of Catholics" doesn't extend back very far. Many of our folks were not even alive before Vatican II and know nothing that came before.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,895
    I get the feeling that some people's "collective memories" don't go back farther than 1969: anything before Vatican II doesn't exist.
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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    Sad but true. We are, for better or worse, as Cardinal Stafford jubilantly told Pope John Paul II at WYD in Denver, "the children of Vatican II".
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,895
    Perfect example of the hermeneutic of rupture.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,099
    Perfect example of the hermeneutic of rupture.


    Yes, but it could also be an example of the old saying that time marches on. It would be no more realistic to expect people to know liturgies that stopped being used before they were born, than to expect people in the 16th-17th centuries to know how mass was celebrated before Trent. We could study the liturgies of the last two thousand years, but would have no personal experiences with them. Most are not that interested in studying anything liturgical perceived rightly or wrongly as ancient. Just get the one hour "obligation" out of the way each Sunday so you can go do something else.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    Yep, Clerget. Perhaps, since you bring it up, it would be opportune to explore in a little more detail just how far this hermeneutic of rupture goes in the life of many Catholics.

    How many Catholics today have the experience of participating in a Mass offered ad Deum, versus apsidem?

    How many have the experience of singing or hearing Gregorian chant?

    How many have the experience of hearing in church polyphony from the great renaissance masters?

    How many have the experience of kneeling for Holy Communion?

    How many have the experience of kneeling during a silent Canon of the Mass?

    How many experience silence at all during the Mass?

    How many Catholics have ever heard a sermon on the four last things?

    How many have ever heard that the Mass is first and foremost, a propitiatory sacrifice for sin?

    If you were to design a poll to assess the faith of Catholics on the essential meaning of the Mass, the Real Presence, the four last things, and the ten commandments, would the results be the same for EF and OF congregations if you were to compare them?

    After 50 years of constant liturgical change, is it time to ask whether our modified lex orandi has essentially changed the lex credendi of Catholics? These are tough questions, and I don't presume to provide an answer; I'm just askin'.

    Just to be clear, I'm not trying to criticize all the wonderful, faithful Catholics at the OF, many of whom I consider to be saints and heroic Catholic witnesses, whom I treasure for their kindness and cheerfulness. I'm not saying one form is better than the other, I'm not measuring internal dispositions, but asking WHAT do Catholics believe. I'm just speaking in broad terms: are we beginning to see a difference in the faith and sensibilities of the people who attend the two forms of the Roman rite?

    Are there very different approaches and perceptions of the Catholic faith, according to the two forms, and if so, what might the causes of that difference be?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,895
    Most are not that interested in studying anything liturgical perceived rightly or wrongly as ancient.


    Why not? I would think that clergy in particular would be interested in the history of their profession.

    Just get the one hour "obligation" out of the way each Sunday so you can go do something else.


    I've seen this, too. I think that's the reason that some clergy and powerful lay people in parishes can get away with some of the things they do: the average PIP doesn't care as long as the Church will agree that they've satisfied their Sunday obligation.

    After 50 years of constant liturgical change, is it time to ask whether our modified lex orandi has essentially changed the lex credendi of Catholics?


    I think it has. The Mass contains the entirety of the deposit of faith, which includes Scripture and Tradition. If you change the lex orandi, for example removing Traditions from the Mass, then you change the lex credendi. I believe many of the traditional practices, such as kneeling to receive the Eucharist, were there for a reason. It also seems, at least for the US, that some of these traditions were removed for the sake of expediency: for example, by making standing the norm for receiving Communion, you can get through the line faster, especially if you are distributing the Blood of Christ all the time, too.