Starting to sing propers at mass
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I am a fan of Propers and incorporate them when possible. However...I am reminded of a cartoon where two Victorian ladies, clad from head to toe, looked at a roaring twenties flapper with bobbed hair, short skirt and other exposed skin. One of the ladies said, "They are not made like us, are they?"

    The whole world changes often, and the liturgy has certainly changed since the good old pre-Vatican II days. The current liturgy is not made the same, although similarities exist. It isn't always possible to squeeze older forms into newer ones. Sometimes, the fit is so bad it is obvious something is not quite right. Does this need addressing, yes, definitely. The folks at the top could actually fix this if they really cared to do so. They seem content with current ambiguity and letting folks do their own thing. It is, however, a fixable problem. The Propers could be reworked, rewritten, and revised so they are a better fit with the new rite. Again, if anyone in charge wanted that. GR and missal Propers could be meshed so there is one set for both that actually applies to the readings and content of each day. Where the Gregorian chant is impractical, new settings could be written. The "Propers" problem seems more a problem of priorities rather than abilities.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • In the era of the "conservative" Donald Trump -- they just might stampede.

    In the era of social media 'me-too-ism' -- they might just stampede.

    In fairness, it was less than a week from Jesus' triumphant entry into Jerusalem to his Crucifixion

    Here's the question, though: should we offer worship to God based on what the mob might do?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Here's the question, though: should we offer worship to God based on what the mob might do?


    Worship can always be offered to God if the key people necessary for it can be found. However, worship can have legitimate differences over time from organic development, cultural/political realities, or top-down deliberate design - a problem inherent in the system itself. So yes, worship should always be offered to God, but the construct of that worship can vary.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I'd like to offer an alternative to introducing propers (for the very first time) as a seasonal thing, ie: beginning to chant the Communion on the First Sunday of Advent. While it makes sense to the liturgically-minded, other folks will associate it with the season, and will wonder when it will end.

    We started with the Communion antiphon in English some time last fall. It wasn't a special liturgical day, and I can't remember exactly when it started. I just did it, and then it was a thing. We do it at every Mass in every season.

    On the other hand, we started a chanted English Gloria for the Easter season, and its been well-received but the perception has been that this is an "Easter thing," and people are asking when we'll return to the old metrical Gloria.


    As a matter of introducing things with authority, the first change might be most effective just out of nowhere (with a little catechesis to explain what it is and why it's being introduced - and why it will continue indefinitely).

    OTOH, we started using Pluth's Hymn Tune Intoits during the Easter season, but those will continue because its a different experience for the congregation. They can still sing along, its just new lyrics to things they already know. If you introduce chanted antiphons at the start of a season (esp. to a congregation where this is a new aesthetic), it runs the risk of being simply a seasonal allowance. Pick a random OT Sunday and just go for it (with your pastor's approval) and never look back.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Here's the question, though: should we offer worship to God based on what the mob might do?


    That would be a great example of secularism.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    That also is a great example of hyperbole! ;-)
    "Give 'em the lead, Quasimodo."
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 163
    @canadash: I'm really not that sure how the average response is. I know a lot of people have left the parish since this priest arrived, and so attendance is down. I haven't talked with most of the parishioners, since most of them don't come to parish functions or stay to talk afterwards. Of the few which I have had the opportunity to talk with, I get the impression that those few largely either appreciate them or outright think they are good/wonderful - but I would expect that from people who actually care enough to come to parish functions. I get the impression that the rest of the parishioners are either indifferent - don't care one way or another - or don't like the changes but have stayed since it is their home parish.

    @Richard Mix: I see what you mean - normally there's a cantor for the Responsorial Psalm and Alleluia. What I was getting at, though, was the differences in the full Latin Graduals/Alleluias/Tracts compared to the vernacular Responsorial Psalms. In the full Latin Graduals, no one in the congregation would be able to do the normal "response" as they would in the vernacular Responsorial Psalm and Alleluia - and neither would it be a good idea for them to, for the full chants. And so I was thinking, I don't think the average OF crowd, who is used to a) having the option to respond after a cantor sings a couple verses, and b) having vernacular, would respond well to having both of those taken away. It would take (a) careful explanation on the part of the priest, and (b) frankly, a "traditional"-minded parish in the first place, in order for the Graduals/Alleluias/Tracts to regularly replace the Responsorial Psalm and Alleluia in the average Ordinary Form parish.

    @Noeisdas: Yes, it was wonderful! It was a lot less well-attended than last year's Midnight Christmas Mass, but that was more or less expected. I'm glad that at least some people had the opportunity to experience an Extraordinary Form Mass which they otherwise would never have the opportunity to do (since most people won't go out of their way to attend a 5pm Sunday Mass, which is our usual EF Mass time, if they usually attend Mass in the morning). Our parish is blessed to have the priest we do have - and of course I'm extremely thankful for him too, since this parish is probably one of very, very few parishes at which my conscience would allow me to be an organist/choir director.
  • Gentlemen,

    I'm quite serious: do we make decisions about the public worship of God based on what someone can stir the crowd to demand? I think that for the last 50 years, the answer has been a resounding (tinny, but resounding) "Yes". The people demanded liturgy in the vernacular (or not); the people demanded altar girls (or not); the people have been clamoring for women's feet to be washed (or not); guitars were in, chant was out, in the name of the people (or not).

    The question, though, is should this be allowed to continue? Every time we simply slip into justifying things in the name of the people's alleged pastoral needs .... we do a dis-service to God.
  • To answer the original question- I say go for the Gregorian communion antiphons with verses. In the OF it is permissible to use several of them (seven, iirc?) ad libitum. Use them with the verses to master the flow of the chant. Richard Rice graciously shared his type setting online- with dozens of PDFs found under "Communio" at the musica sacra main site.

    Gustate et videte and Panis quem ego dedero are two of my faves. You could alternate on those two for many weeks in a row so the singers build a core repertoire and the faithful become familiarized with hearing them as well. They are gems.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I'm quite serious: do we make decisions about the public worship of God based on what someone can stir the crowd to demand? I think that for the last 50 years, the answer has been a resounding (tinny, but resounding) "Yes". The people demanded liturgy in the vernacular (or not); the people demanded altar girls (or not); the people have been clamoring for women's feet to be washed (or not); guitars were in, chant was out, in the name of the people (or not).


    Of course, this is how we make the people feel like they are participating. Nevermind actual participation, we don't know how to accomplish that. Let's just make them feel like they're more involved and give ourselves more power in the process. If one actually reads the documents put forth by Vatican II and see who really benefits from the loosened rubrics and all those options, you will easily find that it is not the people, but the clergy. Who gets to choose which form of the penitential rite to use? The priest. Who gets to choose whether we hear the long or short form of the readings (when applicable)? The priest. Who gets to choose which of the Eucharistic Prayers we hear? The priest. Who ultimately gets to choose whether we have altar girls, vernacular liturgy (albeit the bishop should have this authority, but de facto the priests are making this decision, whether they should or not is another issue), women's foot washing, etc.? THE PRIEST. The priest is completely within his rights to deny the mob (exceptions from Summorum Pontificum notwithstanding), yet in many cases he chooses not to. I propose it is a CHOICE on the part of clergy to allow these things, for whatever reason. The mob cannot actually force anything.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab