.

The nuts are feeling empowered by the internet and, I'm sorry, Trump.

As Dr. Mahrt says: “would you pay a plumber?” Some people I know don’t like paying for singers, which of course means they care not one whit about quality. I know an all-volunteer schola can sing as well as pros, but pay the director and organist at least. But these people seem to be in matthewj’s first camp... Sort of.

The ones I get are nowadays the self-fulfilling prophecies of “The church allows other things, so there can’t be objective standards, and youth want it [praise and worship stuff], not Latin.”

Yep. You see what happens when you hire Eagle Death Metal.

Patriotic songs! This illustrates, I think rather nicely, what some people really worship.
It would be unthinkable for anyone to sing, say, Lauda anima at a sports or patriotic event (and we might be glad), but scads of people think that the Church exists only to pray for the state. Mind you, they don't want the Church meddling in what they consider politics and the state's business, and zealously guard that 'wall of separation', but as soon as the state is in danger or there is a disaster they come running to the Church to pray for it.

These examples of bizarre claims are really surrealistic, aren't they? It's incredible what too many people think belongs and doesn't belong in Church. They haven't a kindergartner's understanding of what the Church or the mass IS.

One bizarre comment I've heard too many times from people responding to chant, or Bach, etc., at mass is 'God doesn't care about that'. Interesting! How do they know this? One is left assuming that they do believe God does care about the 'music' which they are so benighted as to prefer. Me? I would be inclined to think that God doesn't care about these precious paranoid second amendment (the Death Amendment) rights.

Kathy, I'm not sure just in what sense your offering is supposed to be an example of 'bizarre'.
It would, on the surface, seem to be an example of sage counsel.
On the other hand, considering the cultural-liturgical milieu in which we live, such counsel might be so unfamiliar (or unwelcome) as to seem bizarre to certain types.

Here within spitting distance of DC the prevalent model of parish employees as public servants carrying out the will of "the people" seems to be the root of some strange attitudes. About 5 1/2 years ago, when the pastor began reforming the liturgy in the parish, one member of the "old guard" met with me privately to convince me that I could establish a great notoriety among local parishes by fostering the coexistence of folk band and traditional choir. Another person introduced himself to me by reciting his resume of experience as extraordinary minister of holy communion, liturgy committee member, pastoral advisor etc., spanning over about 3 decades; this he did to establish himself as an authority on the liturgy (though he admitted complete unfamiliarity with liturgical books and documents -- then again, they seemed, in his experience, not to be so important). Others seemed to expect that the pastor would fall on his knees and beg them to stay when they threatened to leave the parish because they didn't like the music.

Something that actually struck me with a particularly deep disillusionment was when the old guard kept referring to hymns and chant as "classical music," which caused me some initial confusion until some further probing revealed that they referred to anything composed before about 1960 as "classical music." In their minds there were only two kinds of music, folk band music (which they called "our music") and everything else (which they called "classical"). To them, Gregorian chant and Beethoven were synonymous.

A priest once told me that since it was Lent, we were supposed to sing from the Lent section of the hymnal.

Oh, well. I guess I have done it now. I used hymns from the "transfiguration' section for Transfiguration Sunday. LOL. Remember when priests were some of the most highly educated people in the parish? Good old days!

...youth want it [praise and worship stuff], not Latin.

No, people in their 50's and 60's who think youth want it are the ones who want it (apologies to anyone in this forum who may be of that age) and therefore shove it down their throats.

The seed sown on rocky soil...

Nice to see that sarcasm isn't dead.

Why no SATB in the pew edition? What stopped that?

Why no SATB in the pew edition? What stopped that?

Probably a combination of (1) those in charge (whether pastor or liturgy committee) who don't know how to sing, let alone that SATB has been the tradition for ages; (2) economics foisted on us by the publishers of hymnals; and (3) a who-cares malaise in untutored congregation that could care less.

Whatever it is, it's a terrible situation, and, yes, I know that there have been quarters where melody only hymnbooks have been in place for years.

Addendum: Steve Collins also give good reasons above, posted while I was typing my reasons.

I believe one issue is that the standard arrangements are often copyrighted, even for tunes in the public domain.

I don't think any of us would want a USCCB hymnal. By the time it got through the committees and publisher-dominated reviewers, it would be nothing but trash.

I disagree about CBW III.

It's far from great. But it doesn’t deserve blanket condemnation, as above. There is much in it useable, and defensible; and much of what remains is still excusable.

Neither does the idea of an approved national hymnal in general deserve such condemnation.

I agree about Celebrate in Song, though. Serious waste of paper, that.

Gotteslob is usable.

It has some wonderful old hymn tunes that are so beautiful! I wonder if there was a time in the early days of modern hymnody when melodies had to be beautiful, before the vertical completely dominated the horizontal.

I spent a Christmas in Cologne, and fell in love with this, which isn't terribly beautiful in that melodic way, but is rather fun to sing!

Thanks for Zu Bethlehem geboren, Kathy.
I had much fun teaching my boys' choir this when I served my Lutherans.
There is a charming organ prelude on this by Helmut Walcha, which would be nice for Christmas prelude music, or during communions.

There is a fascinating little book of such German sacred songs called Lieder Perlen, which, I think, can still be had from Concordia. Wonderful for children and adults alike.

Say what you will about the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council - irony was not their strong suit.

The solution is simple really. Just start singing chant in a nasal Middle Eastern way and presto the youth will be able to get what they want at home and won't have to go join Islam.

I disagree about CBW III.

It's far from great. But it doesn’t deserve blanket condemnation, as above. There is much in it useable, and defensible; and much of what remains is still excusable.

Neither does the idea of an approved national hymnal in general deserve such condemnation.

I agree about Celebrate in Song, though. Serious waste of paper, that.

I have to agree with Andrew here. I think the Canadian CBW II was on the right track. Something went awry with the third edition. I must say that since my choir has begun singing the psalm verses in four parts, I have come to appreciate the psalms in the CBW III. (The CBW II had many Gelineau psalms and those were an excellent resource) If a refrain is something I don't favour, I usually exchange it with a Sommerville refrain and it usually works nicely. The Canadian ICEL Gloria in the "Celebrate in Song" is fab especially with the harmonies and descant.

The first post reminded my of my best friends (and they were my very best friends) from highschool. Two became evangelical protestants and the last converted to Isalm. Not sure the GC was the cause of my Muslim friend's conversion though since she probably never heard it in her lifetime.

when people believe in nothing, they will believe anything that comes along?

Yes, that is what my mother said when they all started converting. I was so sad about it. We were all in the youth groups together, sang all the crazy songs we loathe so much here... but they really didn't understand the Eucharist. The two who converted to Protestantism had a real faith in Christ, in that they had a prayerful relationship with Him and still do. They are wonderful Christian women and mothers. But if they truly understood the Eucharist, they would have never left. The third met a Muslim man and fell in love with him and his enthusiasm for his faith.

We now have the best of both worlds, and, have our cake and eat it too.)

Cake is good!

@Andrew%20Malton @candash

I can agree about the psalms, but really mainly for the CBW II. I like your idea of replacing the refrain with a Sommerville Refrain or if I could I just write in his style. Have you ever tried a TBA (Thomas Barrett Armstrong) refrain? Usually set to Sommerville tones, I like his psalms. Sometimes, I write my own settings with Sommerville tones just because the quality of that style is probably better. The hymns, I must disagree about. I stopped using them ages ago. I use the CBW II for most of the hymns, and a lot of the psalms. I just lost my interest in CBW III. And my priest just bought 100 new ones for the pews, (we never use them) and 30 choir editions. We almost never use those hymnals. The music ministry is in outrage. I have only seen them used by the other groups (contemporary) once. Just really need a place to vent about my least favourite hymnal (aside from Glory and Praise 3rd edition, even more of an abomination)

"Usable" reminds me of a remark of Cardinal Ratzinger: "Utility music is useless."

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