Ordinariate Ordination
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    For those following, the worship aid is here (and the stream is on EWTN):

    http://www.ordinariate.net/documents/2016/2/160202_Worship_Aid-Ordination_of_Bishop_Lopes.pdf

    Thanked by 4CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn BruceL Casavant Organist
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,221
    A worship aid with four-part harmony on the hymns!
    Thanked by 7Kathy CHGiffen Ben Casavant Organist BruceL JL Jahaza
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,515
    The best of all possible worlds :)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    A worship aid with four-part harmony on the hymns!

    Is there any other (sensible) way?
    Thanked by 8Richard Mix Ben Casavant Organist Adam Wood moderntrad JL Gavin Jahaza
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    It is eleven-thirty here and I just got home from the reception. The ordination came to within five minutes of lasting three hours. And what glorious and splendid hours they were! The co-cathedral seats about two thousand, and it was all but full. You should have heard all those people singing Anglican chant and everything else that 'the people' are supposed by some not to be able to sing. And, there was not a single non-ritual word inserted at any moment. Everyone did just fine following the service folder without an announcer 'inviting' them to please join in doing this and that. This was the fulfillment of a dream I have had since I was an adolescent. Thanks be to God, and thanks be to H.H. Benedict XVI.

    How many of you watched it on EWTN?
    What were your observations?

    Viewing the altar from the choir gallery I was thinking all through the mass how nice it would have been covered with a Laudian coverlet!
    Also, our deacons and crucifers normally wear dalmatics a la Sarum.
    This was a glaring omission.
    Our verger, though, was present and fulfilling his duties.

    Thanked by 5CHGiffen moderntrad CCooze BruceL Steve Collins
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    The best of all possible worlds.

    Ha! Forgive me: I don't know why, but Candide popped into my mind as I read your complimentary words, Kathy. This ordination, though, and all of which it is the fulfillment are certainly not satire! It may be one of the most profound events in the Church in five hundred years.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,370
    The Alleluia is interesting given it fell after Septuagesima, and Fr. Bradley says there are Tracts for this period...
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    The Alleluia is interesting...

    ...on several counts...

    We have been observing the 'gesimas' these past several weeks and using the tracts (full Palmer-Burgess versions!) instead of alleluya. It seemed fitting to me that we should sing alleluyas on Candlemas and at this historic ordination. I suspect, though, that this was a bow to the 'ordinary time' custom of the Roman usage that is normal at this point in time.

    On another count -Oh! If only we would be using the Palmer-Burgess alleluyas! Our rector and our choirmaster, both of whom I genuinely esteem, are aware that I abhor these cute little happy-clappy triple alleluyas which do not belong at mass, even though the rest of the Roman Catholic Church jolly well does them anyway thank you. We, of all people, should hold to our custom of singing one alleluya (as found in the AUG, or one of the simpler Gregorian ones) with its jubilus at mass. This custom was broken last fall when we suddenly started doing these trendy terse triple alleluyas. I hope that liturgical taste and our own heritage will be restored soon. I must say it again: a triple alleluya (with jubilus!) is unique to the Easter Vigil. In fact, there is a remarkable and profound symmetry which inheres only during the Triduum between the three Ecce lignums of Good Friday, the three lumen Christis which begin the Easter Vigil, and the three (rather elaborate!) alleluyas that acclaim the Easter gospel. At all other masses there is but one alleluya with its all-important jubilus, which is an ecstatic sigh of love and praise for the sacred Name of Yah-weh.

    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Jahaza
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,221
    The Alleluia in the program, by the way, was composed by a former president of the CMAA, the late Theodore Marier.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    Yes, I know that.
    Our choirmaster is an admirer of his and, I believe, studied with him.
    For me, though, it will take far more than Marier's provenance to legitimise this tacky custom. (And, I think that Dr Marht would agree in this matter.) Nor do I mean any disrespect for Marier! He did so very many things that were good and commendable, but this wasn't one of them.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,221
    I think your idea is right: that the feast was treated as Ordinary Time out of consideration for the General Roman Calendar. The texts for the feast in the Roman Missal include some alleluias on the ends of antiphons, with no mention of what to do if the feast should fall in Lent, probably because under the current calendar it can't.

    I hope EWTN will repeat the broadcast at some time, since I had to miss most of it due to a previous commitment; I only saw a few minutes at the end of the Mass, and the broadcast ended with a roll of the credits somewhat abruptly at 2 hrs 36 min into the program, just as the Te Deum was beginning with the procession of Bp. Lopes through the cathedral.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Abbot Jonathan CoelAbbot Jonathan Coel
    Posts: 167
    (deleted)
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 807
    I wish that people would put the correct harmonization in the correct key of "Westminster Abbey". It is in A♭major with the harmonization attached. At least they have the right text!
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    2592 x 1936 - 2M
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    2592 x 1936 - 1M
  • moderntradmoderntrad
    Posts: 50
    Which hymnal does this Ordinariate community use? the 1940? the 1982?

    I hope they'll post a link to the video soon!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,515
    Jackson,

    Voltaire was mocking Leibniz--I wasn't!

    I've been a little bit involved with music in the Ordinariate, and it always feels like a marvelous new morning. So did yesterday evening's Mass.

    What a tremendous gift to the Church, from/through our Pope Emeritus!
    Thanked by 1moderntrad
  • cmb
    Posts: 88
    As is nearly always the case with televised Masses, I wish the commentators would have hushed up and let us listen to what seemed to be very beautiful music.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    As is nearly always the case with televised Masses, I wish the commentators would have hushed up and let us listen to what seemed to be very beautiful music.


    That channel is the worst for having a babbling idiot talking through everything.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,370
    I thought of the triple Alleluia too.

    It is funny you mention that. Due to limitations of time, the Gradual & Tract for our Candlemas were set to Anglican chant (Franciscan’s schola director trained on the organ at Calvary Episcopal in Pitt).
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    I wish that people would put the correct harmonization in the correct key of "Westminster Abbey". It is in A♭major with the harmonization attached. At least they have the right text!

    What do you mean by "the correct harmonization in the correct key" for the Purcell tune WESTMINSTER ABBEY? The tune is derived from the final "Hallelujah" section of Purcell's
    O God, Thou Art My God, where the key is C major. I did a cursory search and found, in addition to your version in A flat major, versions in B flat major, G major, and F major. The older editions tend to be in higher keys (B flat, A), while the newer versions in lower keys represent the modern lowering of pitches probably due at least in part to the raised A440 (from older lower pitch levels) and to the seeming inability of current and recent generations (presumably through lack of vocal exercise and training) ability to sing as high.

    FWIW, the most common key in current hymnals is, by far, the key of G major.

    Thanked by 3irishtenor doneill Steve Collins
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    ...which hymnal...

    The unofficial official hymnal is the 1940, though we supplement it with various items from time to time. I look for a day when we will have our own hymnal, which, no doubt, would be The Hymnal To Put All Others In The Shade. However, I think that this is not a priority at this time and will be quite a while off. There is, as most probably are aware, some few unfortunate selections in the 1940, but we know what they are and how to avoid them.
    Thanked by 1moderntrad
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,221
    Just to add a data point: the Ordinariate congregation in my town uses the 1982 Hymnal.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Adam Wood
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    I'm sure that some do.
    What is your town? (Do I remember correctly that it is Boston?)
    And who is the patron of your ordinariate parish?
    Do you worship there?
    In all honesty, there are a few things about the 1982 that are improvements. Mostly with regard to the liturgical section, though the demotion of Gloria to an optional 'canticle' is most unfortunate, ditto that of Agnus Dei to but one of several choices for a 'fraction anthem'. Then, there is the vexatious presence of two rites, the second of which (besides being the cute Anglican version of what we Catholics have finally, and happily, kissed good-bye) is now, with the adoption of Divine Worship: the Missal, totally redundant (as in not licit). There are a number of really good additions to hymnody. Praetorius' Ach Herr, du allerhochster Gott comes to mind as matched with an Ascension text. A goodly selection of plainchant hymns is commendable, as is the graduation from quavers to note heads (could we hope that the next edition will graduate to square notes? Probably not. The 1906 English Hymnal will never be bested on this count!). There are some awfully unfortunate things (such as no. 599) that I shant mention; and the omission of Dulce Carmen as the tune for 'Alleluia, Song of Gladness' really smarts, as do a few other absences. And, the fonts and layout (which hath about them a 'board room' look) are not nearly as pleasingly ecclesiastical in appearance as those of the 1940. (Nor, I suspect, were they meant to be!) Too, in too many instances there has been a lamentable messing around with language.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen moderntrad
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,221
    St. Gregory the Great Parish (Ordinariate) meets in St. Patrick Church (Archdiocese of Boston), in Stoneham, MA.

    I only get to see them a few times a year, on weekday feasts, due to my Sunday cantor job elsewhere.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    MJO, as a note: I believe the alleluia was mandated by the powers-that-be. I could be mistaken. I missed listening in, so am hopeful to hear some of this today!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,370
    You know, it’s just wrong that they didn’t respect the Ordinariate liturgy on that one...
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    You know, it’s just wrong that they didn’t respect the Ordinariate liturgy on that one...


    I know of other times and places where a simple Triple Alleluia has been done in the Anglican Use, without the influence of such "higher-ups". And (re: "patrimony") a lot of Catholic-ish Episcopal and Anglican parishes do so as well.

    So it's not like it was some unprecedented foisting of Modernist Romish practices on the "pure Anglican" (ha ha) liturgy. (Not that I think it was a good idea. I would prefer Palmer Burgess.)
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,370
    I meant instead of a tract.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    ...foisting...

    Well, foisting is foisting, whether it is precedented or undprecedented.
    And, speaking of such, the matter at hand has, truth be known, been 'foisted' as well on Roman rite liturgy for quite some time now. I yet haven't figured out how anyone who knows what a real alleluya is can sing these cheap little ditties with a straight face.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    All true. All true.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,370
    Plus, the original foisting, at least in places that took up or thought of taking up the offer of the Ordinariate, was because people thought they had to adopt the new missal. (Fr. Hunwicke explained it that way.)

  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,486
    It is interesting to note which 'part' of the church is producing press on this event. The orthodox papers such as the Register are publishing nice articles but the more off the wall papers such as the Reporter, not a word. It is quite telling that to those folks, they think this a non event.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,370
    That and perhaps they just don’t like it...
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    ,,,just don't like...

    The same coterie that didn't like Benedict XVI don't like us, who are beneficiaries of his graciousness.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,370
    I also think it doesn’t play into their brand of ecumenism. It’s funny: incorporating Anglican traditions (which were mostly inherited from Sarum anyways) made the Mass more traditional, e.g. Septuagesimatide. The result is the opposite of what some seem to want: the church becoming more like the Protestant communions.
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Anglican traditions (which were mostly inherited from Sarum anyways)

    Much of what came to be known as “classic” Anglican liturgy was actually based on Eastern traditions—the idea, as I understand it, being that the Protestants wanted authentic Christian liturgy but felt a need to excise “popish” elements. I believe it was thus that they sang the Gloria at the end of the service rather than near its beginning.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,370
    The closing of the Our Father with “For thine is the kingdom” comes to mind. The 1928 and 1979 American Prayer Books also include explicitly Byzantine prayers.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 339
    Much of what came to be known as “classic” Anglican liturgy was actually based on Eastern traditions


    If by "much" you mean "a tiny fraction," then I'd agree (the so-called Prayer of St. John Chrysostom and that's pretty much it). Cranmer had no more time for the Eastern Church than he did for the Western and by the 1552 Prayerbook (which was substantially the same as the "classic" 1662 Prayerbook) the main influence was the continental reformers. The Scottish non-Jurors in the 17th and 18th centuries were quite excited by Eastern Liturgies but they were a rather boutique operation who were definitely outside of the Anglican mainstream. It was via the Scots that the American prayerbook got the Eastern feature of an epiclesis (though the American version was couched in rather more receptionist in its phrasing than the Scottish one). The great irony is that many if not most of the Catholic elements of the Anglican Patrimony were introduced into Anglicanism in the 19th century by those who were imitating contemporary Roman liturgy.

    The 1979 American Prayerbook does, I will admit, incorporate numerous Eastern elements (Trisagion, litanies, etc.), but I don't get the impression that most members of the Ordinariate think much of that book.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn Adam Wood BruceL
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    Deacon Frtiz' observations are cogent. There always remained a small-but-influential element in the post-Henrician Church of England that was 'high church' and Catholic-leaning. (And we mustn't forget that as late as James II there was a real possibility of a second Catholic restoration.) Archbishop Laud (from whom we get the Laudian coverlet) was one such, as were the marvelously spiritual Caroline divines. Oxford movement Anglo-Catholicism is indeed an outgrowth of XIXth century efforts to 'restore' the English Church to its true roots and identity. It should not be overlooked, however, that this XIXth century development did not happen in a vacuum, nor without historical antecedents. Too, I will add to the deacon's comments that there was as much loyalty to Sarum precedent as there was aping of current Roman practice in the Anglo-Catholic tent. These were two, often at-odds, streams of praxis in Catholic minded Anglicanism. Truth be known, Catholic piety and theology were never completely stanched in post-Henrician times. I think that only now in our very own day are we seeing the final victory of the anti-Catholic parties who have snubbed their noses definitively at the other two so-called 'branches' (Roman and Orthodox) of the Church in matters of ordination and morality, managed to silence or chase off all opposition, and who, every day, become more theologically bankrupt. And this, of course, is what has led to Anglicanorum Coetibus and the ordinariates.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen BruceL
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    Interesting conversation! But to the broadcast itself:

    1. I was a bit surprised at the sound system noise. It's not like this is a brand new building with all brand new systems. And it didn't sound to me like EWTN's equipment.

    2. Did no one tell EWTN that the Liturgy would probably last three hours? I'm sure glad some one posted the rest of the Liturgy, including the Bishop's remarks, on the internet!

    3. I love the Anglican chant. MJO did a great job of teaching it during the early days, and Fr. Moore and I kept it going during my tenure. The entire congregation used to sing it, sometimes even breaking into parts voluntarily. We even included the quadruple chant by Oakley at the Dedication of the building that is now the Parish Hall. (Now at Stella Maris, here in Charleston, SC, we use Anglican single chants in place of the composers' verses for the Gospel Acclamation and various other things, even in Latin for the EF Masses. I found one that goes perfectly with Dr. Marier's other "Alleluia" in D.)

    4. It was wonderful to see the Verger doing his duties. And carrying the Virge that was designed and built by Roddy MacLellan http://highland-pipemaker.com/, (with my consultation)! I hope the entire Liturgy is made available on the internet, YouTube, etc.

    It was a great, historic Liturgy that I had considered attending when it was going to be at OLW - and very crowded! It made total sense to move it downtown to the Co-Cathedral. But, as Deacon Barnett suggested to me, I had the best seat - in front of my TV!
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Did no one tell EWTN that the Liturgy would probably last three hours? I'm sure glad some one posted the rest of the Liturgy, including the Bishop's remarks, on the internet!


    Part of me wonders if the TV director thought the procession around the church was the recessional for the Mass itself, and so cut away during it.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    If that were the case, then those chatty announcers sure missed the instruction. In fact, I think I remember them telling us exactly what the Bishop we doing. No. I seem to remember looking it up on EWTN's schedule and they only had 2 1/2 hours allotted.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,221
    For a bishop's consecration? They do tend to run long.

    Would someone post a link to the recorded video on the net?
    Thanked by 1moderntrad
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    It's been through the grapevine and has been confirmed.
    The Cathedral of Our Lady of Walsingham is going to be graced with - a rood screen!
    Perhaps by the early summer it will become a reality.
    Thanked by 6CHGiffen CharlesW tomjaw BruceL kevinf moderntrad
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    What wonderful news!
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    Yes, I also heard that from the Deacon a while back. I happy that the solid quarter-sawn teak cross that I made will have a full screen under it. I never envisioned that when I first made it to hang on chains from the ceiling in the first church, now the parish hall.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    image
    Thanked by 2Ben MatthewRoth
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    Ha! How rood indeed!
    Everyone should be so 'rood'.
    Why it adds a whole new dimension to roodness, doesn't it?
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    Says he with a rood-faced grin.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn MatthewRoth
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    You might say that we at Walsingham are having a 'rood awakening'.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen Spriggo MatthewRoth moderntrad
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    Before long, Adam may well have rood the day he posted that picture.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CharlesW MatthewRoth
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    These puns are so roodimentary.
    Thanked by 5Ben M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen MatthewRoth moderntrad
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