Will the outcome of Synod XV affect liturgy and sacred music?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Fr. Krisman, I apologize if I misinterpreted your remarks above and for my partisan remarks about "your side" and "my side." I am guilty of imputing a position to you which you did not state. It is hard not to become infected with the current atmosphere of partisanship which is like a toxic stew (which one person in particular in the Church seems to like to foment).

    As I know you will agree, it is a vicious and terrible thing to rend the Body of Christ, the Church, by setting up a false antithesis or opposition within the Eternal Word. One cannot set up a paradigm of Jesus vs. Jesus and use His "fluffy" sayings to combat His "hard" sayings.

    From what I can tell, that is what Cardinal Muller said here:

    Those who attempt to separate the Church's doctrine from Her pastoral practice are reflecting a "subtle Christological 'heresy'" that results in "a division in the mystery of the eternal Word of the Father, who became flesh":

    This would obscure the dynamics of the Incarnation, which is part of any healthy theology. Christ had said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." Therefore, there can be no truth without life and no life without truth.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    Julie, thank you for your kind words. I was not offended by any of your comments directed toward me. And I admire you for your defense of Catholic teaching.

    Thanks too for the quote from Cardinal Burke. I totally agree with what he said and the careful language he used in addressing this hot topic.

    My only wish is that when you or someone else initiates a discussion of one of these hot topics on this Forum prudence and restraint be exercised in the initial posting so that the discussion ultimately will produce more light than heat.
    Thanked by 3melofluent CharlesW JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    You are a gentleman and a scholar, Father. I so appreciate your words and advice. I did try very hard in the OP to frame the discussion in a constructive way and have tried to be
    calm and restrained, but this is a necessary discussion, even though it does contain a lot of "red buttons". I very much appreciate all the contributions and the steadying hand of people much wiser than I.

    P.S. After consulting with my internal forum, I have concluded that my conscience is clear that I have tried to stay as calm and charitable and constructive as possible in this thread, but of course these are all relative terms. : )
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The terminology is really the key


    Well that just about sums up the first several Ecumenical Councils.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    because some of us (namely myself) are not convinced that the Holy Spirit was actually being allowed to speak adequately at the synod


    He wasn't on the schedule?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    ...that the Holy Spirit was actually being allowed to speak...

    I have observed over the years that when people speak of the Holy Spirit speaking or being heard (and I at this moment observe this without prejudice to pro- or con- on any issue) they mean that their desired goal or outcome has been successfully negotiated-imposed. Absent this favourable-to-their-desires outcome the Holy Spirit is almost never considered to have been heard or have spoken. Thus it is on any number of liberalising vs. conservational issues in the Catholic Church, and so it is and was in the Episcopal church with regard to its unfortunate recent history. It is only when people get what they want that suddenly they are all smiles and gleefully exclaim that The Spirit has finally been heard. Until then, they will be unpleasant (or manipulatively 'pleasant') until their goal has been achieved.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    @juliecoll i really enjoy your postings and contribution to this forum over the past years, you often make me think, or follow interesting links. Than you for the pleasure of your conversation, albeit in this odd long drawn out conversation mode of forum posting. You good health!
    Thanked by 2Salieri JulieColl
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    'Ere, 'ere!
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Holy Spirit was actually being allowed to speak

    The Holy Spirit is always speaking.
    The choices are ...
    People are not listening.
    People are ignoring.
    People are repeating.

    Isn't the real issue with what the Holy Spirit is talking about (dogma),
    and the claim that
    in the past the Holy Spirit said A
    but in the present the Holy Spirit says Z ?
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Salieri
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Cardinal Wuerl recently asked (according to the NCR) "“The frame of reference is now going to be: ‘What does the gospel really say here?’"

    This is, clearly, because for the last 1984 years we haven't asked or answered this question?

    Thanked by 2eft94530 Salieri
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Every so often I get the idea that there are an awful lot of Bishops and Theologians floating around today, who, in better times, would have been ordained "Mass Priests" without the faculty to preach. YMMV
    Thanked by 3CharlesW eft94530 StimsonInRehab
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Interesting discussion at Rorate Caeli blog about possible reform and changes at the Congregation for Divine Worship.

    Fr. Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, reporting on the first session of a recent meeting of the Council of Cardinals on Feb. 8-9, announced that "the G-9 cardinals are still in the throes of discussing planned reforms for two other dicasteries: the Secretariat of State and the Congregation for Divine Worship. He defined this as still “a work in progress.”

    Rorate Caeli editorializes:

    "Given the Council's growing focus on decentralization it should not be surprising that it has returned to the task of reforming the Secretariat of State and most especially the Congregation for Divine Worship. The latter was the first dicastery to be examined by the Council of Cardinals in 2013, and along with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) has long been a favorite target of those who want greater "decentralization" in the Church. The recently-concluded 51st International Eucharistic Congress resounded with calls for "inculturation" and greater independence from Rome on liturgical matters and we fully expect that in the coming years we will see a renewed push by liberals for Rome to surrender even more authority over the liturgy to the local bishops' conferences."
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    shudder.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    They should just start their own religion... Oh... they already have...
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    .
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    o wow.. a yellow box WITH a period inside. this is a significant occasion!
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Teach your parishes and choirs about chant now. Before there are more excuses.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,935
    There will always be excuses. Remember - God is faithful to people who don't make excuses.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    Looks like a chess match to me.

            
                  
            
                  
            
                  
            
                  

    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn JulieColl
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