Will the outcome of Synod XV affect liturgy and sacred music?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    This seems to be the "October surprise" we've all been waiting for. Pope Francis has a plan to convert the papacy; he plans to "invert" the pyramid of the Church's traditional hierarchical structure:

    http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Pope:-the-Church-of-the-third-millennium,-synodal,-listening,-collegial-and-with-a-conversion-of-the-papacy-35613.html
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Julie,

    I know nothing of Asia News, so this may seem like a stupid question.

    Is this report to be taken seriously, or is it an Onion-like headline and story?

    God bless,

    Chris
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/10/17/pope_francis_marks_50th_anniversary_of_synods_institution/1179978

    If only it were bogus. Here it is from Vatican Radio.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Julie,

    Now I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I would welcome the return of evidence of the monarchical papacy. "Inauguration" sounds so, um, presidential. (Cum petro et sub petro doesn't mean "with gasoline and under the influence of Big Oil"). On the other hand, if the present Synod is how the Pope intends to govern the Church, perhaps it is time for a Magna Carta, which was a fundamentally conservative document restoring the king of England to his rightful place vis a vis his subjects.

    Thank you for your continued vigilance.


    God bless,

    Chris
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I've read his address several times already, and it seems as if he's summoning all the power and authority of the papacy in order to eviscerate the papacy. Doesn't that violate the principle of non-contradiction somehow? It seems like there's a fallacy in that proposition. How does one use the power of one's office to abrogate/nullify/degrade that (divinely instituted) office?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    But the Orthodox churches are governed by synods, and I don't know of much liturgical or doctrinal turmoil among them. Though there is certainly a tendency to organisational fracture.
    Thanked by 1PaxMelodious
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    http://www.chantcafe.com/2015/10/warmed-over-gallicanism.html
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I may be excoriated for asking this question-Is it weird that the Michael Voris/Militant take on the synod seems now entirely plausible?
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    But the Orthodox churches are governed by synods, and I don't know of much liturgical or doctrinal turmoil among them. Though there is certainly a tendency to organisational fracture.


    But there is often conflict between patriarchs who can be quite territorial jurisdictionally.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles (Melo)

    Let the excoriation begin. I've said many times in the last few years that what seems to be happening (both in the Church and in our nation) should be the stuff of a bad dystopic movie in ratings' week. There's supposed to be a Jack Ryan or St Athanasius or something coming to the rescue, at least in the movies. God, being God, chooses to work through human elements. Of course, there need to be such human elements.......

    Let us thank God for the faithful bishops.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    CharlesW October 16
    Posts: 6,319
    Actually, if you believe the predictions of saints and mystics, the church will go into a serious decline.
    Thanked by 1francis
    Even Our Lady of La Salette said, 'Rome will lose the faith'. One has to understand that the 'Church' may go underground. It will NEVER be banished and it will never end, even if the faith should exist in only a few. That IS the promise of Christ about the gates of hell never prevailing against it.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Personally I'm about to follow Pope Michael.

    How do you use that "just kidding" font, again?
    Thanked by 4CharlesW Blaise melofluent eft94530
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    "asianews" is operated by PIME, the Holy See's missionary agency.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Even Our Lady of La Salette said, 'Rome will lose the faith'. One has to understand that the 'Church' may go underground. It will NEVER be banished and it will never end, even if the faith should exist in only a few. That IS the promise of Christ about the gates of hell never prevailing against it.


    The Church will survive in some form, but those prophecies are pretty graphic. Dead popes, anti-popes, Rome in ruins, countless dead, it's all pretty bad.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    That supposed message from La Salette is not from the 1846 messages accepted by the local bishop, but from the 1879 claims of the seer Melanie. That revised version of the La Salette events was not accepted by the Church; On May 10, 1923, her revised account was condemned by the Holy Office and placed on the Index of Forbidden Books.
    Thanked by 3Andrew_Malton eft94530 hilluminar
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Father Abbot (Jonathan Coel),

    The solution you propose regarding prior meeting with the pastor before Holy Communion creates issues when it comes to people visiting other parishes. In essence, it leaves coommunion only open to people who attend the parish. I prefer the method currently in use in modern Catholic churches: the people judge themselves in light of where they wish to be when the King returns, with the more serious cases being the responsibility of the pastor or the ordinary to judge.

    Now, as for the issues directly above regarding the pope versus synod, the Holy Father could not renounce his authority to govern the church even if he wanted to, for St. Peter alone was given the keys. Now, if I remember correctly, the task of the pope was to faithfully guard what already has been handed down, not to make up something new. Then having a fairly strong (authoritative, but not authoritarian) papacy is actually a safeguard, not a nuisance, and is our protection against episcopal conferences, etc., who want to invent new doctrine or so-called "pastoral solutions" which lead people to perdition.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    The solution you propose regarding prior meeting with the pastor before Holy Communion creates issues when it comes to people visiting other parishes.


    It could. It is always possible to get a note or letter from your pastor to take to the pastor of the church you will be visiting. The reason such things work in Orthodox churches, is that they are rather closed societies where everyone knows everyone else - and their business. The pastor knows who has been to confession before communion and who has not. In a large Latin parish, this would never work.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    That supposed message from La Salette is not from the 1846 messages accepted by the local bishop, but from the 1879 claims of the seer Melanie.


    I have never been much of a believer in apparitions in the first place. There tends to be if not a garbled message, at least a secret clear to no one. I see no reason for a heavenly being to appear and tell you there is a secret, but you can't be told it. Kind of pointless, I would think. Approved or unapproved, no one is required to believe any of them.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Lourdes set a gold standard for the modern era. And even that the faithful are not bound to believe.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    chonak:

    Can you please give us sources for your information on La Salette? Thanks.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Hi, Francis:

    Writer John Loughnan found the text of several decrees and placed it on the net here, with an English translation for convenience:
    http://jloughnan.tripod.com/sal_decr.htm

    Now that the Acta Apostolicae Sedis are on-line at the Vatican web site, interested readers can check the original, too.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Here is an article that documents the historical controversy on the subject. Incredible stuff. Who to believe?

    If that is your only documentation, which includes no history, it could very well be only part of the picture, and a very small part at that. The remnant does the digging. Is there anyone who can give us the FACTS?

    http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/952-will-rome-lose-the-faith-la-salette-revisited

    If modernism was the threat to the vatican that was such common knowledge (i.e., the encyclicals on modernism around that time), well, it would certainly be likely that the secret would 'go sour' once those it spoke of were in it (the vatican and high offices) and trying to do 'damage control' so to speak.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The dictum is true: a true mystic or visionary will always obey the legitimate religious superiors and authorities in the Church.

    Of course people who want to defend a rejected private revelation will argue that the condemnation by the Holy Office is not to be trusted. In this case, particularly so, since the condemned message aims to sow mistrust and disobedience toward lawful superiors in the Church.

    Loughnan replied to Mrs. Hertz's arguments (may she rest in peace) on other occasion here:
    http://jloughnan.tripod.com/salmelan.htm
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Bill,

    Just for a moment, reading this
    In this case, particularly so, since the condemned message aims to sow mistrust and disobedience toward lawful superiors in the Church
    I had to make sure you weren't suddenly discussing Medjugorje, instead of La Salette.

    Thanked by 1chonak
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I find it very interesting that a document (and quite likely an appearance and warning from heaven) that came from 1846 (and then) 1879 is still highly controversial and is surrounded by confusion. Besides, the index of banned books ITSELF was officially banned altogether. So then if one is following the magisterium faithfully should not we ban all banned documents from our thinking (that they have been banned?)? Is not this the diabolical disorientation we have been warned about?

    You cannot arrive at a conclusion in logical fashion which means confusion is rampant and we are only left with the rosary and the sign from the Son.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Ms. Hertz (RIP). Ahhhh. A very orthodox priest-friend, an acute observer of both the Left and Right in the Church, told me that Ms. Hertz is..ahhh...nuts.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    While the Index no longer bears legal force, the condemnations remain.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Do they? And where is that stated?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    follow Pope Michael.

    Really? I mean, REALLY?

    He lives in Kansas, the distance from there to Rome is really far
    and everybody knows Kansas is like Tatooine.
    He lives in an attic.
    He is a layman (i.e., not yet ordained).
    Finally, why are you neglecting devotion to The Maternal Color?
    No way should you follow him, he is an anti-pope.

    The one you need to follow is Pope Gregory XVII
    and his successors.
    He lives in Spain, and Spain is closer to Rome, on the same continent.
    He lives in a palace.
    He is ordained by the super-reliable Abp Thuc
    who creates lots of successor bishops for him and Old Catholics and others.
    His devotion to The Maternal Color is obvious.
    Finally, his ecstatic experiences are sure to thrill and convince you (timestamp = 2:30 ff).

    Hmm, when I came in to the room, I flipped the Purple Bold switch to On,
    maybe the bulb is burned out?
    Oh well, I will fix it later.
    On with the show ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGUQqNgffUM
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    While the Index no longer bears legal force, the condemnations remain.

    Do they? And where is that stated?

    Logic.
    Put something in box A.
    Seal box A.
    Put box A in box B.
    Seal box B.
    Unseal box B and remove box A.
    What is status of something in box A?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    He is a layman (i.e., not yet ordained).

    You are too funny, eft m' man. Anyone living in or near Richmond, CA must have a strong funnybone. That said, I'm under the impression that a layman can yet and still be "selected" pontiff.
    I'm waiting with baited breath by my phone as I type.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    @Melo, I doubt that your breath would ever be baited [sic] unless you had just eaten some sardines.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Well, it was early out here in CA, Padre, and we were having a wonderful thunderstorm! Besides, I'm partial to anchovies and sprats....hail Caesar Salads. I remain unabated near the phone. They may need me over there, over there....

    Was I right about my candidacy?

    BTW, eft, that ancient portrait of me with m' Martin HD35 was taken on Humboldt St., Richmond circa early 80's. We could see St. David's from our front window.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    All hail Pope Melo!
    Thanked by 2melofluent eft94530
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/22a1f16abb00d5762351285938304462-473.html

    BTW, this is an excellent article on the radical roots of Pope Francis' ecclesiology, showing how he endorsed Archbishop John Quinn's (San Francisco) 1999 book entitled Reform of the Papacy and hoped it would be implemented.

    Note especially the liturgical implications of the proposed decentralization and horizontalization (i.e., flattening) of the Church.

    Just a little light reading for your Sunday afternoon which will no doubt leave you all feeling relaxed, upbeat and confident in the future. : )
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    a layman can yet and still be "selected" pontiff.

    Yes correct it is possible, and has happened.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_III

    Nowadays, can you imagine the pressure of crash courses in missing Philosophy and Theology education and Mass rubrics and who knows what else while the Church waits patiently (five years between priest ordination and bishop consecration)?
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P1D.HTM
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    P.S. After reading the article above, the dreadful thought occurred to me this afternoon that perhaps the path by which decentralization could occur is via the abolition of the Curia. Lo and behold, I see that thought echoed by Fr. Ray Blake who has suggested that

    If the CDF is diminished presumably national Churches will be free to develop their own local theologies, with no appeal to Rome against heresy - God help us - it will be a free for all.

    If CDW is abolished or diminished, then Liturgy will develop along national lines - there will be no need to ask if lay people can preach. No need to restrict the role of odd or extraordinary ministers or of who might or might not receive the Sacraments, we will just refer to the local bishop or bishops.In the same way we in the English speaking world, if it wasn't for Rome would still be stuck with those dreadful post-Concilliar translations.

    What I fear as a priest is there will be no appeal to Rome, if my bishop is heretical or just plain cruel, just an appeal to the Bishop's Conference, who may or may not be his mates rather than mine and may or may not share his cruelty or moral turpitude.


    Can someone please assure me that this really is not the plan? Please? Somebody?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    path by which decentralization could occur is via the abolition of the Curia.

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/02/16/after-beheading-coptic-christians-islamists-say-they-will-conquer-rome-next/
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    On the other hand, if the Curia is less important, Islamists will have less of a centralized target.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl eft94530
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,959
    If a layman were elected Roman Pontiff, I suspect the canon law regarding the timeframe of priestly ordination and episcopal consecration would be amended by the Supreme Legislator, who is such by virtue of his election and the acceptance of said election. I would like to think that it is a bad idea, except that the most famous case of a layman being elected a bishop was a great moment in the church's history. That was Ambrose of course. And he wasn't even baptized yet!
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I'm baptized, MR.!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Pope Melo the Magnificent. Sounds ok to me. ;-) Can't be any worse.
    Thanked by 2melofluent eft94530
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Y'all worry far too much.

    Read Mgr Hayburn's book "Papal Legislation on Sacred Music" which is a compendium of all the docs Popes issued from ~300AD to ~1965 or so.

    What you'll notice is that the Popes wrote the same dratted letter several times (separated by 50-200 years or so). What can you conclude?

    That nobody ever really paid attention to what Popes EVER said about Sacred Music. Ever.

    If you're surprised to learn that nobody pays attention to Papal teaching on birth control, and you're an informed church musician, you're stone oblivious to history and mankind.

    You have exactly one soul to save. Any more than that is a bonus. Worry not.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    The Church will survive. It will be there until the end times. Worry is a gift of the devil. Trust in God, not your fears.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    I can tell you a little about why vocations are numerous in some dioceses and non existant in others. It is simple. Where the bishop values and preaches vocations and supports all means of producing vocations from families and parishes, they appear in great number. It has nothing to do with the size of the diocese, i believe that a few years ago, before the present bishop, LA had almost none, while Fort Wort, a fraction of the size, had 14.
    I would appeal to all of you, i know you are Faith filled Catholics. Encourage men you see who you think may be good preists to contact their pastor and vocation director. Think about how you could encourage vocations in your parish...Most dioceses have "come and see" programs for prospective seminarians to investigate the possibility of a vocation.
    If we all do our part, we will find that the situation will change, as i believe it already has, as most seminaries are increasing in numbers. Our seminary is been full for the past several years.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    That is an amazing story. I think St. Thomas Aquinas said bishops receive the number and type of vocations they deserve.

    There were 10 priests ordained this year for our diocese which was a marvel and an enormous blessing. I wonder what the future holds for young priests---after this week we could be looking at TEOTCAWKI, barring Divine intervention.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    You have exactly one soul to save. Any more than that is a bonus. Worry not.

    Well, Dad, (if you're my dad you'd be 92) In the immortal words of Katrina Fernandez, oracle of the Carolina's, "S/he might stand a chance as a martyr." Failing that, I think Pope would look very good on my CV.
    Dah nyah beet, I forgot about Dante..... ScheisstenFreude!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I hear that "Pope Michael" has had himself "consecrated" by some "independent" "bishop".

    Oh, dear, I've used up all my allotment of scare quotes for the day; how can I write about such a person without them?
    Thanked by 2eft94530 CHGiffen
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    So when and where is our conclave?

    Will the invitations be created by Aristotle or Jeff O or Adam?
    Or do we open it to all and receive sample invitations below?
    Do we vote on the invitation we like best or appoint Adam and others to judge/choose?

    Should we ask @bonniebede to count ballots?
    She probably has more experience than the rest of us
    due to that bridge-buying bid-tracking thing.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl bonniebede
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