Humorous... but Very Very Sad
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    I could not help but think, "I need to post this to the forum."

    I am working with a couple on choosing music for their wedding. I have sent them the guidelines for choosing music and here is the response:

    I think we are confused about everything we need to choose... isn't there something easier to follow that just lists the order of the mass by music- what is sung, by whom and what choice we need to make and what type of song it is? I feel like what is provided by the church is not clear at all. Of course we know in general, but having never had to plan the music in whole ourselves we are missing pieces and need guidance.

    Now, before anyone accuses me of arrogance or any number of other sins, please be assured that this couple will receive clear guidance in getting the music right for their wedding (even in the vernacular if they so desire!) It won't be from any book or encyclical or church document, but from yours truly, sitting with them, and patiently steering them through the mass confusion (pun intended). This is very telling, and amusing... but Very, Very, Very, Very sad that the Church is in this predicament.

    It is the telling truth about the "diabolical disorientation" which the Roman Catholic Church finds herself to be in. We are in the ultimate predicament: Pandora's box was opened with VII (well, at least with the results of those who spun it out!), and this is proof positive that we are spinning around in the tornado of confusion, one that will not end until we obey heaven. We try to 'fix' our circumstances with an excessive amount of human effort, thinking that 'we' can fix the situation... we can control the vertical... we can control the horizontal... truth is people, our 'TV' connection has been hijacked, and we will only get to watch "900 channels of nothing" if we continually ignore the request of heaven. We will continue to spin in the whirlwind until we realize we have no power to reverse our course of going off a spiritual cliff.
    Thanked by 3irishtenor CHGiffen dboothe
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Be a pilot, francis, not a Pilate. This is the new normal.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Everything about this post confuses me
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Gavin
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    melo: I am a pilot and this has ALWAYS been the normal since I have been alive. I am simply giving those who do not know some info from those of us who have been around the block.

    adam: Yes, it is all very confusing. Very, Very.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Why should people who don't particularly know anything about church music be made fun of, and borderline accused of being diabolical, for not being able to pick a whole Mass's worth of music for a special kind of event that they probably attend rarely? This just seems mean-spirited and small.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Spriggo Gavin
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    MarkThompson

    I am not pointing out the couple at all. I am pointing at the confusion of what music is appropriate for a wedding in the RC church. This should be clear and concise and it is not. The simple fact that the Beatles can be included during a wedding is the sad part- NOT the people who are wondering what is appropriate.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Yes. The Church totally says to use Beatles music at weddings and provides absolutely no guidelines about what is appropriate. No book anywhere, or any church document, provides any straightforward information about what music to program at weddings. Thank goodness francis is here to clear up all of this VATICAN TWO CHAOS!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Yes. You would think that the church would have a simple book that would help couples choose wedding music. Funeral music is the same way. One funeral I was asked to sing Turn! Turn! Turn! The priest allowed it. I declined to play it and a rock group was brought in.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    A priest I know goes through all of the choices possible in the OF, then he says "But here is the EF..." They usually choose the EF option, with all it's lack of choice!

    N.B. I have sung Mass in the EF for years, and I find the options for the sing in the OF to be most confusing, I am not surprised the average layman also finds it confusing!
    Thanked by 4noel jones, aago SarahJ Gavin veromary
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    All this assumes such things did not occur in the EF in the glory days of yore. I have books of "approved" wedding music from those days. It was as bad or worse than Beatles music. It was all schmaltz. There was the fantasia on the Lourdes hymn by Sister Mary Overbite, and other composers of note. Such was the norm.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood M. Jackson Osborn Gavin
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    The priest allowed it.


    There's your problem.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The priest allowed it.

    There's your problem.


    Nope. It is obviously the CHAOS OF VATICAN TWO and the COMPLETE LACK OF A BOOK THAT SAYS WHAT MUSIC TO SING.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    The real problem, IME, is that the happy couple has been given to understand that it is their job to play liturgist, to put their personal stamp on a ritual.

    This is quite apart from the "It's My Big Day"/Bridezilla/Groom Control Freak/MoB Who Is Used To Getting Her Way thing in weddings, because the mourners go through it in funerals, too.
    I have helped plan funerals with people who were breaking down, and feeling overwhelmed, but because someone had to them the HAD to pick out The Four Hymns were desparate to remember the name of that hymn Aunt Carol had liked, or what they had heard at the last funeral the had been to.
    I've even told people there was no necessity, it could be taken care of, but had them soldier on, "No, no, I have to do this, I'll come up with it, they're depending on me, I'll get back to you."

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 5rich_enough CharlesW noel jones, aago eft94530 Gavin
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    The real problem, IME, is that the happy couple has been given to understand that it is their job to play liturgist, to put their personal stamp on a ritual.

    This.
    Thanked by 2Gavin eft94530
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Not so much liturgist - I doubt most couples think of it in those terms - as a movie producer (if they are paying - otherwise parents are the producers), co-directors, co-screenwriters and co-stars.
    Thanked by 3rich_enough Gavin eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Not so much liturgist - I doubt most couples think of it in those terms - as a movie producer (if they are paying - otherwise parents are the producers), co-directors, co-screenwriters and co-stars.


    I would like to thank my producer, my hairstylist, my florist, my praise band...
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    I of course forgot: co-casting directors.

    You, however, may be a utility sound technician....

    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Well, I FINALLY found a great web page last night and sent it off to them: it's JO"s wedding music page. Thank you JO for almost single handedly making things clear and simple when it comes to sacred music. My hat is certainly off to you. I wish I had found it before I subjected myself to this little discussion out of sheer frustration.

    The priest allowed it.
    There's your problem.

    Yes. This is the confusion I am speaking about.

    Nope. It is obviously the CHAOS OF VATICAN TWO and the COMPLETE LACK OF A BOOK THAT SAYS WHAT MUSIC TO SING.
    Adam. Let me help you.

    We all know quite well that music went into complete chaos since VII. But it was not just the music, but the entire theological disposition of the hierarchy. That is why (for lack of a standard (another way to say "book")), that the choice for everything was left to personal preference (pp) [a very appropriate achronym]. That practice to subvert the wishes of the church or just plain ignore them led to the mentality that "people and their pp ARE the church." Structure, guidelines, rules (yes, you find these kind of things between two pieces of thicker paper with a bunch of pieces of thinner paper glued in between them. I am sure you have seen one) are bygone memories of a "church that only followed rules". The point is, we no longer have a common standard and it's just all a bunch of pp.

    So now our funerals are full of pp, our weddings wreak of pp, our liturgies have gone yellow, and the Same Hideous Intolerable Trash (another achronym) is following right behind it! (Pass me the tylonol... Clark)

    Note: I have become a master of sarcasm from my 40+ years of having Personal Preference and the Same Hideous Intolerable Trash heaped upon me as a DoM in the church. My sincere apology to all of you if it gets in your bonnet from time to time, honey!
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago eft94530
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Please continue to tell me about the complete lack of official books that describe what the music for a wedding Mass is supposed to be. It gets more and more entertaining every time.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    We will not be entertained when heaven finally throws the book at us.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Just arrived in my inbox. Father writes the book on pp from another perspective.

    http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/are-all-welcome-well-meaning-in-theory-but-insidious-in-practice/
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    You, however, may be a utility sound technician....


    Be kind to the utility sound technicians, since you can't know when you may need one. We librarians used to say to those who said librarians are no longer necessary, "good luck finding what you are looking for." LOL.
    Thanked by 2Jeffrey Quick PaxMelodious
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    I'd be frightened to see what an official book of wedding music produced by officialdom would contain. What's more likely:

    (a) the committee responsible for its production will return ad fontes pulchritudinis and produce a volume rich in chant, choral music, Anglican hymnody, and German chorales, with the organ works of Bach for the in-coming and out-going, or

    (b) the committee will listen to the major publishers and produce a book gushing with the schmaltziest, sappiest Contemporary Catholic Liturgical Music, devoid of good options, with an homage to the past in the form of Schubert, Wagner, Mendelssohn, and GROSSER GOTT?

    I think we forget how we got into this mess in the first place. The problem is not too few books telling us what to sing at Mass, the problem is too many.

    The "Big Two [OCP, GIA] and Sorta Big One [WLP]" achieved their present hegemony by publishing and advertising Complete Liturgical Song Solutions with Psalms, Hymns, Mass Settings, and even a Missal of sorts in one convenient and affordable package, indexed by season and theme. All of which came as an apparent godsend to the great mass of well-meaning amateurs who were trying to make music work in the heady days of the late 60's and early 70's, when the mindset was "anything except what we used to do;" really quite difficult to implement convincingly without this kind of quasi-official resource conferring apparent legitimacy on your arbitrary choices.

    Absent the interference of officialdom, meeting face-to-face with couples and chatting casually about church music (which they invariably find new and interesting), I have sung weddings at which the Introit accompanied a procession of the ministers from the back, in which psalmtones of Walford Davies and Longhurst have been used at the Psalm, or even the Gradual Chant itself, or which featured Palestrina and Vittoria and Bach. With the "help" of an official resource in guiding the couple, I'm certain none of that would happen, even if the use of truly inappropriate (read: secular) music at weddings was somewhat diminished thereby.

    But, I am still waiting for radical localization and inculturation to yield the Graduale Americanum:

    Missa Pro Defunctis
    Ad Introitum: "Noli Timere, Praecedo Te Semper"
    Ad Graduale: "Pasce Me, Deus"
    Ad Offertorium, "Me Fac Cursum Pacis Tuae"
    Ad Communionem, "Hic Sum, Domine"
    Ad Commendationem, "Qui Habitatis in Adjutorio Domini"
    Thanked by 6Salieri francis hilluminar eft94530 JulieColl G
  • Cantus67Cantus67
    Posts: 208
    I could engage this conversation. I'm working on editings though.
    I'll just say this. ;)
    image
    Thanked by 3NihilNominis Salieri francis
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I have an official book sitting on my desk that lists the music to be used at a wedding.

    So, as I said before,

    this post confuses me
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Adam:

    Great. And the title is... druummmmmrolllllllllllllllllll...?
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    image
    Thanked by 3eft94530 Gavin bonniebede
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Missa Pro Defunctis
    Ad Introitum: "Noli Timere, Praecedo Te Semper"
    Ad Graduale: "Pasce Me, Deus"
    Ad Offertorium, "Me Fac Cursum Pacis Tuae"
    Ad Communionem, "Hic Sum, Domine"
    Ad Commendationem, "Qui Habitatis in Adjutorio Domini"


    You forgot "O Puer Dannus"
    Thanked by 5Salieri JL canadash eft94530 Richard Mix
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Adam Wood: Thank goodness francis is here to clear up all of this VATICAN TWO CHAOS!

    Which Francis?
    Thanked by 5Adam Wood CharlesW CHGiffen JulieColl Gavin
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    CharlesW: fantasia on the Lourdes hymn by Sister Mary Overbite

    I checked IMSLP and cannot find it,
    but I am almost positive it must be Public Domain by now,
    so please upload your scan as soon as possible.
    Is it sight-readable?
    Maybe I can use it for Assumption tomorrow.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Sister Overbite was one of the least appreciated mid-20th-century composers. She liked to compose, but couldn't make a habit of it. Sometimes her fellow sisters, Sister Mary Thrombosis of the Sacred Heart, and Sister Mary Mucous of the Wetlands Sinuses would help in composition.

    I can give you a real wedding collection title that didn't present a serious threat to great sacred music. "Approved Wedding Music for Catholic Church Services," by McLaughlin & Reilly. No copyright date is given, but it states it was approved by the Diocesan Music Commission of the Archdiocese of Boston, 1954. There were other books of "approved" wedding music out there, most of them not any better.

    Would you settle for "Elevation on a Hymn to Blessed Virgin (Lourdes Pilgrim Hymn)" by Louis Raffy? In the book, and I must admit, much better than anything by Sister Overbite. A similar work representing his style at:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ8lrsSlOrU
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Thank you, Adam. I suspected as much.

    I wager that less than 1% of musicians and clergy use the Gradual, and even far less for weddings. It isn't the book that is missing, it's the KNOWLEDGE on using it and the WILLINGNESS to do so.

    Remember this famous address? Can't resist putting in my own comments.

    Clearly the most noticeable new departure is that of language. From now on the vernacular, not Latin, will be the principal language of the Mass.

    ...and that includes weddings.
    For those who appreciate the beauty of Latin, its power, and aptness to express the sacred, substitution of the vernacular certainly represents a great sacrifice.

    Hmmm... I wonder WHO was going to take on that sacrifice?
    We are losing the idiom of the Christian ages; we become like profane intruders into the literary sanctuary of sacred language; we shall lose a large portion of that wonderful and incomparable, artistic and spiritual reality, Gregorian chant.

    Well, you got that right!
    We indeed have reason for sadness and perhaps even for bewilderment. What shall we put in the place of this angelic language? We are sacrificing a priceless treasure. For what reason?

    Still haven't gotten the answer to that question.
    What is worth more than these sublime values of the Church?

    Nothing!
    The answer may seem trite and prosaic,

    It does not seem trite and prosaic at all... It was and still IS trite and prosaic.

    pro·sa·ic
    prəˈzāik/
    adjective
    adjective: prosaic
    having the style or diction of prose; lacking poetic beauty.
    "prosaic language can't convey the experience"
    synonyms: ordinary, everyday, commonplace, conventional, straightforward, routine, run-of-the-mill, by-the-numbers, workaday; unimaginative, uninspired, uninspiring, matter-of-fact, dull, dry, dreary, tedious, boring, humdrum, mundane, uninvolving, pedestrian, tame, plodding; bland, insipid, banal, trite, literal, factual, unpoetic, unemotional, unsentimental

    but it is sound because it is both human and apostolic. Our understanding of prayer is worth more than the previous, ancient garments in which it has been regally clad.

    "The God of my own understanding"... try googling that one.

    What about, "Have confidence in the Lord with all thy heart, and lean not upon thy own prudence. In all thy ways think on him, and he will direct thy steps. Be not wise in thy own conceit: fear God, and depart from evil" Proverbs 3:5-7

    Hmmm.... forgot about that one!
    Of more value, too, is the participation of the people, of modern people who are surrounded by clear, intelligible language, translatable into their ordinary conversation.
    hahahahahahahhahahah. Results prove differently. Everyone has left.
    If our sacred Latin should, like a thin curtain, close us off from the world of children and young people, of work and the business of everyday, then would we, fishers of men, be wise to allow it exclusive dominion over the speech of religion and prayer?

    So, until the church gets back to basics, we will be singing the Beatles, not the Graduale.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Which brings me to the next question. No one has to answer this as it may incriminate you, but how many times, have you personally used the Graduale instead of a wedding march or hymns, or songs, or whatever, in all the weddings you have played thus far in your career? (Of course, this is referring to RC weddings.)

    I will go first. Out of about 1000 weddings, O. And THIS is why I am the bee in your bonnet!
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I was only pointing out that the problems is not lack of an official book that says what to do. It isn't the book's fault that people don't use it.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW francis Gavin
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    No, it is not the book's fault. It is the fault of the CHURCH, her leaders, her people, her priests and prelates!

    The Book

    The BOOK awaits us.
    The pages cry out in silence.
    Her beauty and her wisdom
    Rots on the vine
    While the children are fed dung.
    There is no substance
    To our flesh and bone.
    We are zombified.
    We are vamprific.
    Horrified and mystified,
    We celebrate suicide and genocide
    Only to be Euthanized.
    The BOOK awaits us.
    The pages cry out...
    in silence.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    JO has written the simple book. It's on his web page. We need to get it out there with a little explanation and demonstration.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    I am the phytohormone in your drink.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JulieColl
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    The set music is in the Graduale Romanum (also in the Gregorian Missal)

    The trouble, is that with the option "et alius cantus aptus" most people have taken that to mean that they can have whatever the hell they want in the way of music.

    With most Catholic weddings they have guidelines issued by the Diocesan Office of Worship or by the parish itself which will state things like "love songs, secular pop-music is generally not appropriate for a church wedding, the musicians will be able to provide a selection of suitable music from which you may choose."
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thanks for buzzing around and prodding at the status quo like a benevolent bumblebee, Francis. Independent thinkers are a blessing, even though they often have to pay a price for challenging established thought patterns.

    Reminds me of this bon mot from Emily Dickinson:

    Assent - and you are sane -
    Demur - you’re straightway dangerous -
    And handled with a Chain.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Again, I apologize for chiming in when I said I was out.
    What may not have come across way back in the thread, francis et al, is that despite all the favorable media spin over HHF has been heavily diluted down to the local parish level of pastors to where "the smell of the sheep" axiom has been co-opted to engender convenience and clericalism. And that is why, after the best pontificate I've lived under, this retrogression is almost devastating. Not that any of us have changed our stripes, however configured. But the rather blunt article at RC this week was quite a summation: A Skeletal Liturgy for a Skeletal Church. We need a liturgical Churchill, world wide, and no US See makes that criteria*, if Cdl. Sarah and the faithful Africans get even a tacit support from HHF, there might be a last stand. This "new or revised" normal will prove the death of RotR. The EF will live on. But the NO, unless Sarah's letter about ad orientem has any traction, will continue to attrite.
    * Just compare-contrast the Illo/Cordileone situo in SF and the Romeri/Chaput in PA and draw your own conclusions.
    And in the words of Leonard Cohen, "What I'll tell you since you asked" the setting of this litany, hymn, option four whatever the heck it is, is simply INSUFFICIENT.
    Thanked by 2francis CHGiffen
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    CharlesW, thanks for info, especially composer Louis Raffy (found on IMSLP).

    Sister Mary O ... Sister Mary T ... Sister Mary M

    Religious community initials?
    Please!
    :-)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    They were all RSM and those were nicknames we gave to them when we were all much younger. There was also Sister Buttugly, Sister Mary Horribilis, and Sister Mary Moredonuts, but you don't want to hear about that. However, there was one who gave us candy, so she didn't get a nickname. Nice lady!

    I noticed the Raffy pieces on IMSLP, but there aren't very many of them. I suppose most are out of print these days and few copies remain. When I get some time I may look through my older books and see if I have anything else by him.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Thanks for the encouraging word, JulieColl. CMAA forumers and colleagues, you have my prayers and support. Don't ever forget it.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    Probably 5% of weddings in the New Rite I've done have in some way featured propers from the Graduale Romanum.

    Although this is an official book, it still doesn't deal with the music that has always been ad libitum: processions for the wedding party, preludes, motets, devotional pieces. And it is not an official book telling you what to sing in a prohibitive way.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    You would think that the church would have a simple book that would help couples choose wedding music.


    Yes, one would expect as much. Why don't they?

    Because you haven't written it.

    Why not put together a simple book with wedding music options and policies for couples to examine before you meet with them? My church (Episcopal) does this with funerals, and I've written the page on music. It lays out policies, what is sung when, contact information, and a list of suggested hymns.

    If, after meeting with you, couples are more confused than before, that is not the fault of Vatican II.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Because I haven't written it!?


    Because I haven't written it!?


    Because I haven't written it!?

    It truly does amaze me that we are at this point in the Church after 2000 years. It seems as though we have been dumped into a liturgical wasteland with no compass, food or water and expected to survive on our own pp (see comments above).

    OK... everyone give me your thoughts on this please...

    A Simple Guide to Planning a Wedding Liturgy

    Small booklet.

    Ten to Twenty pages, with links to musical samples, starting with the Graduale Romanum as the first choice.

    Perhaps the English books as alternatives (Weber, LCM, SEP and if Ford has the propers)

    Simple explanation of the Introit, Offertorio and Communio.

    Where instrumental music might be appropriate (prelude and postlude) and possible selections.

    Explanation of the cultural practice of visiting an image or altar of the BVM and appropriate music.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Essential Principles for Planning a Wedding Liturgy

    1) Since you've asked to be married in the Church, remember that the purpose of the Church is to bring people to God. If your wedding plans draw people away from God, it's not in accord with the mission of the Church.

    2) You will be making your vows in the presence of God and of assembled friends. Remember that your focus is God.

    3) Some local customs are permitted within the Church ceremony. Others, however, are not. The premise that "if it draws attention away from God, it's bad" should be observed.

    4) Music can be used to make you (or the recording artist) the center of attention instead of God. This music should be avoided.

    5) The Church has done this before. It should be your first and only time. Trust the ancient wisdom of the Church. Your parish organist isn't actually infallible, but is pretty close. Your parish guitarist and cantor are not.

    6) "Guest" soloists need to be planned well enough in advance that they don't draw attention to themselves, but to God.


  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Chris

    Have you given that out to couples?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Liam,

    No.

    God bless,

    Chris
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Chris:

    That is funny. Some of it would be good to elaborate upon and be put into language that is a bit more inviting perhaps. Thanks for the contribution.

    Notice I am not using the title, "A Simple Guide to Planning YOUR Wedding Liturgy". The church needs to take back what is their responsibility. It may be 'Your' wedding day, but it is the church's sacrament.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    No matter what you come up with, you won't be able to actually use it with couples if the priest doesn't support it (or at least support your decisions in general: one priest I work for actually just leaves the music to the musicians).
Add a Comment