No Gloria Patri for Holy Thursday?
  • musiclover88
    Posts: 156
    Quick question: In the Simple Choral Gradual, there is a note at the bottom of the page for the Holy Thursday Entrance Antiphon that says "according to custom, the Gloria Patri is not sung during Holy Week." Is it just a tradition that it isn't sung, or is it actually not allowed? I'm just kind of wondering why the Gloria Patri is in the music for Holy Thursday if it isn't traditionally sung.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    My priest emphatically reminded me to remind the musicians that there IS a Gloria on Holy Thursday.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    These are two different things.
    Thanked by 4francis Adam Wood Jahaza eft94530
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Please explain.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    We're talking about the doxology "Gloria Patri et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto..." at the end of the psalmody of the entrance antiphon. Not the "Gloria in excelsis Deo" after the Kyrie...
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I stand enlightened. Thank you.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Sorry to be so brief above. Not curtness but haste!
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    FWIW, in the EF, there is no "Gloria Patri" throughout Lent (except for Annunciation). That may be the 'custom' mentioned, but...
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,313
    No, there is no Gloria Patri in Passiontide in the chants and texts of the Mass. The responsories of the Divine Office lose their Gloria Patri from Passion Sunday onwards, and for the first four days of Holy Week, it is not prayed after the Psalms. The offices of the Triduum in the EF are modified so much that it would be aesthetically inappropriate, let alone liturgically, to pray the doxology!

    One could revive this in the OF with no problem. The doxology is optional anyways.
    Thanked by 2musiclover88 Salieri
  • musiclover88
    Posts: 156
    Thanks, everyone. This will be for an OF Mass, so in that case it sounds like the Gloria Patri is just optional? The reason I'm really wondering is because I'm just doing the Entrance Antiphon during the processional and no opening hymn, so I was trying to gauge how much music we would have with/without the Gloria Patri.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    The abbey where I attend Mass uses Gregorian chant for all Masses, weekdays and Sundays, in the OF, and never use the Gloria Patri after the entrance antiphon. It isn't specified in the Graduale Romanum either.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    MRoth: Thanks, I stand corrected. That's what happens when I don't have my GR next to my desk!
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    Could the Gloria Patri be dropped from the OF Liturgy of the Hours as well? I haven't ever seen any rubrics permitting it.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,313
    OraLabora, my understanding is that the Gloria Patri tones are in the back of the revised GR from Solesmes.

    No problem, dad29.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    The Gloria Patri tones for the Introit ("Toni V. Gloria Patri at Introitum") are in the 1961 Graduale, on pp. 135*-137*.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    We drop the Gloria Patri in the OF Office. Our pastor, when asked, shrugged and said, "Mutual Enrichment."
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,187
    When something is optional in the liturgy, sometimes it seems you can do anything you like except exploit the option in order to follow an older rule.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Ted
    Posts: 204
    I did not even know there was still a Gloria Patri in the OF form Introit. The fanatics that reformed the Mass after the Council thought that saying the Gloria Patri more than once a day, (or was that once a week) was unnecessary repetition as specified in Sacrosanctum Concilium. I am sure they still believed in the Trinity, though.
    Traditionally, the Gloria Patri is not used during Passiontide. In the EF form that means the first Sunday of the Passion, that is, the Sunday before Palm Sunday when images and statues are also covered; it re-appears during Paschal time, in the Introit for Pascha Sunday.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    @MatthewRoth:

    And so they are. Just had a look in the back of my Triplex and there they are. Never noticed them, the abbey never uses them.
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    Isn't the Genitori, Genitoque verse of the Pange Lingua functionally the same as the Gloria Patri? Is anyone aware of the omission of the final verse of the Pange Lingua on Holy Thursday?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,313
    Nope. It seems to be sung through entirely in all 3 forms of the Roman Holy Week of the last century.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Interesting.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Isn't the Genitori, Genitoque verse of the Pange Lingua functionally the same as the Gloria Patri?
    First of all, Pange Lingua is a hymn, not an Introit or other proper chant of the Mass where the Doxology would be added to a Psalm text at Mass. Sccond, while the imagery of the Genitori, Genitoque recalls some of that of the Gloria Patri, it is not in any way the lesser Doxology. The Gloria Patri is a formulaic text, just as the Sanctus or Gloria in Excelsis or Agnus Dei is. Genitori, Genitoque is the last stanza of a hymn, albeit a significant hymn. Many, many hymns have a final stanza of a doxological nature.
    Thanked by 2ronkrisman M. Jackson Osborn
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Excellent response, CHG.

    A couple of other Holy Week hymns (both by Venantius Fortunatus) with final stanza doxologies:

    Vexilla Regis Prodeunt
    Pange Lingua Gloriosi Proelium (Laureum) Certaminis
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  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    And why would we drop this doxoolgy? What is the theological purpose behind omitting the GP on Holy Thursday? Is our Triune God somehow bereft of dignity and unworthy of praise on this day? Makes no sense at all---at our place, we never drop the GP, ever.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    It's because the GP was not introduced until the 4th century, and, according to Baumstark's law, the most ancient usages prevail in the holiest of seasons. Thus, since it wasn't used most anciently, it's not used on the Triduum.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Goin' rogue?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Or, it's a heavenly song, and this week is not yet heavenly.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    ronkrisman
    Thanks for pointing out the use of the other Pange Lingua on Good Friday. That's a perfect parallel. Hymns are omitted in the office on Holy Thursday and Good Friday, so I couldn't think of a comparable hymn. Was more curious than anything else. Wasn't at all considering omitting the last stanza tonight; will leave the liturgical abuse to our pastor.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    according to Baumstark's law, the most ancient usages prevail in the holiest of seasons. Thus, since it wasn't used most anciently, it's not used on the Triduum.

    This is why Easter Day has a Gradual and Alleluia, as does the Octave, until Quasimodo, when the Gradual is dropped in place of the First Alleluia. It is also why, in the Traditional Roman Rite, there is a Tract after the Tripe Alleluia at the Vigil: It is a Vigil, which automatically returns to prior practice (The Tract pre-dates the Alleluia), but an Alleluia was added since this was the first Mass of Easter. Holy Saturday being a dies aliturgicus (as is Good Friday, when only the Mass on the Presanctified is served).
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    the Tripe Alleluia
    Are you sure we can stomach this?
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  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Lol, Charles.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Don't disparage a heaping bowl of menudo con posole after singing your Easter Alleluias unless you've tried it - at least a couple of times.

    Good Eats!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    I love menudo!
  • Paul_Dang
    Posts: 15
    The responsories of the Divine Office lose their Gloria Patri from Passion Sunday onwards, and for the first four days of Holy Week, it is not prayed after the Psalms.
    I believe it is actually the last three days of Holy Week that the Gloria Patri isn't prayed after the Psalms. The first four days still have Gloria Patri said after the Psalms.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,313
    Paul, you can double check Divinum Officium, but Holy Week there are no GP’s as per my checking of DO and bugging a former FSSP priest about it...
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I love menudo!


    Me too!


    image
  • Paul_Dang
    Posts: 15
    I did. All iterations of the Divine Offfice, from pre-Tridentine Monastic to 1960 rubrics show the Gloria Patri from Palm Sunday to Wednesday in Holy Week after each Psalm. I've also checked the Monastic Diurnal, the Liber Usualis, and other such books. There is no Gloria for the Responsories or the Invitatory, but that's all. It's not til THursday, Friday, and Saturday that there is no Gloria Patri after each Psalm.
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