Uh, oh....I see Anthony Esolen in the Octagon soon with hymnists!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,477
    Finally, it is necessary to preserve the sacred character of the liturgical language in the vernacular translation, as noted with exemplary clarity in the Instruction of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments on the translation of liturgical books Liturgiam Authenticam of 2001. A notable fruit of this instruction is the new English translation of the Missale Romanum, which will be introduced in many English-speaking countries in the course of this year.


    That's weird. Apparently I missed when they changed it to "And with thy spirit."
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn PaxMelodious
  • Brian Michael Page
    Posts: 157
    I hope Tony Esolen gets a copy of Worship IV!


    I have a copy, which I will loan him when I see him in church. ;)
    BMP
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    I should make popcorn.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    At least, Adam, we got 'and with your spirit'. Pity the poor Episcopalians - always eager to adopt the latest chic liturgical fad they followed helter-skelter as Rome gave us the dumb 'and also with you'. Now Rome has fixed it and the Episcopalians are stuck with it.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    There can be elevated contemporary English, if...

    you can find someone skilled enough to write it


    That's a fair point and reminds me of my pastor's comment that if you wanted to build a church building to replace your 70's wreckovation, are there any skilled craftsmen left that can build in traditional styles and if so, would your failing demographic be able to afford its construction and sustain it?

    P.S. Just a suggestion: ixnay on the alumycay. If someone specific has testified wrongly, please testify to the specific wrong and hold sweeping broadsides. Thanks.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,309
    Re: Immaculate Mary... The version they use in England has better music and far superior words.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Care to post them?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,309
    @chonak, here's a recording with the lyrics scrolling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcs6WPjZi0k
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Broken link, alas. : (
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,192
    Here's the fixed link

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcs6WPjZi0k
    Thanked by 2JulieColl Ralph Bednarz
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,309
    Thanks... I had a remarkably hard time to get it to post. How did you do that, by the way?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,192
    Just paste the URL directly. Don't try to use the Link Tool at all.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    doneill: "Immaculate Mary" is loosely based on a hymn by Jeremiah Cummings called "Hail Virgin of Virgins," the version we all know first appearing in 1952.

    1952? Which text? Which music?

    https://archive.org/details/TheSongOfBernadette1943
    timestamp == (h:mm:ss) 2:20:30
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    Never, never, never, mess with poetry. That's natural law.
    Even the unicorns in the Palm Sunday introit are not to be meddled with.
    Odysseus killed the priest and spared the poet.
    Use programs for your liturgies and restore the texts. ...
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen MatthewRoth
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,100
    just a PS on an older thread.
    JulieColl had said >> P.S. "O God" as in the vocative case, is fine, e.g., O God, our help in ages past, or "Holy God", but I can't think of any standard hymn that addresses God with the (too) familiar address "God."

    Actually there is "God Father, Praise and Glory" (originally “Gott Vater Sei Gepriesen,” Limburg Gesangbuch, 1838), although the St Basil version may be more familiar "O God Almighty Father".
    Personally I agree with JulieColl; although Deus in adjutorium meum intende sounds fine, addressing God in English just as 'God' doesn't. To me.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    Anyone for the original carol, Hark, How All the Welkin Rings?
    Thanked by 4Salieri CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn Heath
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    Let's just get all of the Lutheran nonsense of hymns out of the Mass, where they don't belong.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Let's just get all of the Lutheran nonsense of hymns out of the Mass, where they don't belong.


    I know you mean well, but that horse escaped from the barn 50 years ago. Not going to happen.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,192
    How about "Hark! the herald angels sing" in music that may have inspired the tune we know, adapted from the Gavotte in Orchestral Suite 4:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRgGOt2dxPQ#t=00m07s

  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Anyone for...
    Me!
    ________________

    About the vocative 'O' - one of the less desirable features of that dynamic equivalency with which we were stuck for forty years and is now in history's dustbin was the near absence of the vocative which resulted in the presumptuously familiar address of God as if he were merely our 'buddy'. The absence of the vocative was, like calling a parent by his first name, unblinkingly presumptuous if not blasphemous.

    Thank goodness we now have the improved-but-not-yet-perfect translation that we do!

    One of the many beauties of Anglican hieratic English is the use of the vocative. Not only is it an essential mark of respect, it is gracious both as literature and in mental attitude. Too, it is more poetic and musical.

    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Vilyanor
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    I know you mean well, but that horse escaped from the barn 50 years ago. Not going to happen.


    I can dream, can't I?
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 440
    My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

    More or less presumptuous?

    What about God of Mercy and Compassion, while we're at it ...
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Um ... but those of a more conservative turn of phrase still address God in the second person singular (the familiar form) while everybody else is accorded a plural of respect. Same in French - your lover and children, and Almighty God, get tu.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    I don't think so: Michaela sings "protegez moi" and the Marot psalms use vous. German/English/Italian do use the familiar du/thou/tu, though.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Changing a word in Romeo and Juliet really is unacceptable to the theater-going crowd.

    Catholics, however, don't speak up. Maybe liturgy should be considered theater - and then get the respect of liturgy goers.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
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