New Undersecretary of CDW a "staunch Bugninist"
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    In case of interest, a claim has been made about the background of Fr. Corrado Maggioni who has just been appointed undersecretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship, replacing the previous undersecretaries. Fr. Anthony Ward and Msgr. Miguel Ferrer.

    The Montfortian is a "confident Bugninist" as Riposte Catholic reports and a "great friend of Msgr. Piero Marini", the papal master of ceremonies of John Paul II.
  • I keep mixing up Guido and Piero, which is frustrating, because the former is legit.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    StimsonInRehab: mixing up Guido and Piero

    Guido == G == Good ?
    ;-)
  • Guido, Piero, Bugnini - The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
  • Dave
    Posts: 64
    The "claim" comes from a blog with no supporting evidence.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    This is the original article. I called it a claim since there is no validating references so everyone is perfectly free to take it or leave it.

    Eponymous Flower blog collects Church news from many European sources. It's just one of a number of websites I follow, but I have found time after time that when EF reports something, others quickly follow. It's one of those "before it's news" websites. I often wish what I read on EF blog is wrong or wildly exaggerated, but Tancred is proved right more times than not.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    The new undersecretary has published several books on Mariology and one on the Eucharist. Perhaps his main scholarly expertise is in the former field, as is not surprising for a Montfortian father.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Dave
    Posts: 64
    Thanks to Chonak for making this point.
  • What is the point of making reference to the disparaging adjective "Bugninist," then, and passing around the claim on this forum?


    Well this is a forum for discussing anything related to the Church, liturgy or music. It's not a courtroom where things have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt once claimed.

    Anyhow, with relation to the topic at hand though, I say "who cares?" I don't mean that in a nasty way, just that I don't see anything changing that much. Really, no matter who Pope Francis puts in these positions, what are they going to do, mandate mariachi masses across the world? Did Pope Benedict's people mandate Gregorian propers?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Stories that originate in the Italian press often take names as indications of schools of thought. One sees references to Ratzingerians, Lefebvrians, Wojtylians, etc. It's not derogatory. It would be more conventional to say "Bugninian" if that is what applies.

    In this case, the story seems to have been raised in French-speaking sources also, and the same phenomenon appears there.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    It actually would be a bad thing if the model of Annibale Bugnini were adopted by curial officials.

    The memoirs of Fr. Bouyer relate that Bugnini got his way on certain matters of the liturgical reform by acting as the gatekeeper between Paul VI and the Consilium, and by lying to both sides. Supposedly, he got the Consilium to acquiesce to certain changes by saying that Paul VI wanted them, and got Paul VI to accept them by saying that the Consilium had been unanimous in supporting them. If the story is true, it sounds quite wicked.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thanks for the info on Fr. Maggioni, Chonak. I've been looking him up. He certainly looks like a kind and affable man. I see a number of books by him on Mary and an article on the liturgy at a Vatican website, like you said.

    He is also mentioned in an article here:

    A commentator on the spirituality of St. Louis de Montfort, Fr. Corrado Maggioni, states that ≥the Blessed Virgin is the perfect model of all who receive Holy Communion.≤ Furthermore, Fr. Maggioni goes as far as to say that ≥union between Christ and Mary, which took place at a definite time and place, is repeated in a sacramental way when the faithful united with Mary receive Holy Communion.


    An excerpt from a book by Fr. Maggioni entitled Jesus Living in Mary is here, Being very fond of St. Louis de Montfort's books myself, I consider it a positive sign that Fr. Maggioni appears to be very devoted to Our Lady and has a traditional bent in that regard, it would seem.

    I think what is most disheartening in this news is that Msgr. Juan Miguel Ferrer was not retained at the CDW since he was known to be sympathetic to the Extraordinary Form and is an expert in chant.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Really, no matter who Pope Francis puts in these positions, what are they going to do, mandate mariachi masses across the world?
    I wouldn't be surprised, but I would be dismayed.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    More on Msgr. Ferrer here who has been terminated as one of the undersecretaries at the CDW.

    From this 2012 article, it appears Msgr Ferrer had these specific plans (pending the approval of Cardinal Bertone) to expand officially the use of Latin and chant:

    it is evident that in order to reclaim the issue of music in liturgical celebrations, the congregation, making its own the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI and his immediate predecessors on the matter, must guarantee:

    1. the preparation of updated and official instruments in order to be able to celebrate with song the Roman liturgy in the Latin language;

    2. clarity and facility for the celebration of the Roman rite in the ordinary form in the vernacular language, singing in part or in full the ordinary and/or the propers of the Mass or the divine office in Gregorian or polyphonic melodies based on the liturgical text in Latin;

    3. the existence of updated criteria in order to be able to apply the principles of gradualism defined in "Musicam Sacram," both for celebration in the Latin language and for celebration in the vernacular language (directory);

    4. the existence of a sure normative framework that responds to the purpose of establishing appropriate national repertoires destined to take on little by little an official value, in such a way that the use of other songs would require an authorization "ad casum" on the part of the respective ordinary: this is another matter for the future directory.

    I hope with this [...] that the application of the motu proprio "Quaerit semper" may represent for sacred music a new stage of splendor and beauty: without it, the liturgy would see itself deprived of one of its most eloquent and substantial expressive elements.


    Alas, alas, what might have been.
  • To a point things will only ever change incrementally one way or another. Things did nudge in one direction under Pope Benedict, and some things have become possible - but is the average American parish unrecognizable (musically and liturgically) from what it was in 1988? 1998?

    The same will be true of whatever Pope Francis' appointees do.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Popes come and popes go. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

    I think you are correct, PGA.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    he got the Consilium to acquiesce to certain changes by saying that Paul VI wanted them,

    Gee, does that sound similar to something that happened last month...
  • When I read Bugninist I kept reading it as Bunburyist. But then musing on the above practice I realized why... "Ernest in town and Jack in the country", indeed.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    One more interesting thing I found in the Sandro Magister article on Msgr. Ferrer who has just been replaced at the CDW.

    In his 2012 talk entitled THE NEW DUTIES OF THE CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP
    IN THE PROMOTION OF SACRED MUSIC AFTER THE MOTU PROPRIO "QUAERIT SEMPER" OF BENEDICT XVI

    Ferrer announced that the congregation for divine worship will soon be endowed with an office for liturgical art and music that will finally apply, all over the world, the prescriptions of the Church unheeded until now, the rebirth of Gregorian chant first among them.


    It was just too good to be true, I guess.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Did Pope Benedict's people mandate Gregorian propers?


    Even if they had, nobody would do them. Let's look at the GIRM's instruction to use the Introit, Offertory, and Communion propers, e.g. English or Latin, you won't find 'em used at 90+% of the churches in this land.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    To a point things will only ever change incrementally one way or another.
    Vatican II was far from an incremental nudge. It was a weapon of 'mass' destruction.
    Thanked by 1kenstb
  • That's clever, Francis, and it made me chuckle.
    However, we should be realistic in our appreciation of the positive aspects of the council's liturgical reforms, as opposed to the abysmally inept, amateurish, and irresponsible mayhem that characterised their implimentation. It is indeed astonishing that The Church just stood by helplessly as the mayhem unfolded. (No sacro-pop-loving priest ever tolerates such disobedience!) One would have thought that the propers would have immediately been put into English to chant in the Gregorian tradition, that suitable English anthems would have been commisssioned (or borrowed from the Anglicans), that a respectable American hymnal would have been commissioned, that a vernacular liturgical aesthesis informed by tradition (and the example of the Orthodox and the Anglicans) would have been the order of the day, etc. No, none of this happened. There was mass destruction.

    But, this was not the council's intent, only a result of the utter lack of oversight, foresight, and of the astonishing abdication of will with its resignation to liturgical rudderlessness. We will be living with the fruits of this chaos, which has its champions throughout every rank of holy orders and all manner of 'liturgists' (not to mention our mendacious and unprincipled publishers - every last one of them!), for another several generations, if not more.
  • However, we should be realistic in our appreciation of the positive aspects of the council's liturgical reforms,


    Having just last evening witnessed, assisted at, and sung for the confirmation of my middle son, in the Extraordinary Form with the gracious work of Bishop Barber of Oakland, the acquiescence of my local ordinary, the great love of the priests of the Institute of Christ the King, I find myself compelled to ask:

    What were/are the positive aspects of the council's liturgical reforms?


    From this list I deem automatically excluded any actions done, initially, out of disobedience -- so altar girls, the plethora of Preces Eucharistiae, and a whole host of other current practices are excluded.

    I'll settle for a list, rather than an argument.

  • Even if they had, nobody would do them. Let's look at the GIRM's instruction to use the Introit, Offertory, and Communion propers, e.g. English or Latin, you won't find 'em used at 90+% of the churches in this land.


    EXACTLY! You just made my point. So it's not all that important, in terms of day to day life, who sits in these positions.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Positive aspects of Council's reforms?

    1. Mass in the vernacular. A good thing since too many never understood the Latin, they were just there while it was being spoken.
    2. Role of the laity in evangelization - a good concept never given a chance to succeed.
    3. Participation in singing and text - Intended, and still a good idea. Unfortunately, taken over by too many advancing personal agendas.
    4. Reforms in rubrics - There has been some tightening up even in the EF. Some elements of Catholic worship and devotion no longer made sense in today's non-agrarian world.
    5. A bit of de-clericalization. Now we know priests and religious don't walk on water. Unfortunately, they are as flawed as the rest of us.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    We will be living with the fruits of this chaos, which has its champions throughout every rank of holy orders and all manner of 'liturgists' (not to mention our mendacious and unprincipled publishers - every last one of them!), for another several generations, if not more.
    If God was not to intervene, I totally agree. But I think it is going to be otherwise, very soon.

    To put it in "vernacular" terms, I believe God is quite ticked.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    CharlesW

    Mass in the vernacular?

    Cranmer’s Protestant Reformation incorporated into the New Liturgy

    The New Mass has a clear resemblance to the protestant “worship service” both in its origin and in its content. For example, in 1547, as the first stage of Bishop Cranmer’s liturgical reform the Epistle and Gospel were read at Mass in English. In 1549, the entire Mass was translated into English in a new “Prayer Book” which was now defined as “The Mass or Lord’s Supper." In 1551, a new ceremonial of religion was imposed. This included replacing the altar with a table. The altars were torn down, and movable tables substituted.

    The switch between the priest facing east and now "facing the people" is another reform. They switched the orientation of the priest to reflect their new 'Mass', or Communion Service: The only sacrifice in their worship was a sacrifice of praise and self-giving by the "people of God". In the Ordinary of the Mass points in which the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist and the Real Presence of Christ as a Victim are expressed were suppressed and eliminated or replaced by non-committal words.

    Unfortunately the Novus Ordo (New Mass) has adopted most of Cranmer's innovation to the point that they resemble each other, while both mutually exclude the elements of true Catholic Worship. At First, there were little introductions of the vernacular into the Mass. Then, the entire Mass was in the vernacular. Finally, the entire New Mass was re-written' in consultation with 6 Protestant ministers[xix]. This process, after Vatican II took six years, Cranmer's reformation took only five years.

    When you line up the New Mass with the Anglican schismatic Book of Common Prayer (1549), they are almost identical; in fact, the Book of Common Prayer is more reverent than the New Mass[xx]. The fact that the New Mass resembles the protestant prayer service prompted Mr. M. G. Siegvalt, a professor of dogmatic theology in the Protestant faculty at Strasbourg to affirm: "... nothing in the renewed Catholic Mass need really trouble the Evangelical Protestant " [xxi] This should not surprise anyone since "The intention of Pope Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the Mass, was to reform the Catholic Liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy. There was with Pope Paul VI an ecumenical intention to remove, or, at least to correct, or, at least to relax, what was too Catholic in the traditional sense in the Mass and, I repeat, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist mass."[xxii]

    [xxii] Guitton (19/12/93) Apropos (17) p. 8f [Christian Order Oct 1994]. Jean Guitton was an intimate friend of Pope Paul VI.


    More here:

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/newmess.htm
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I wasn't specifically talking about the "new mass" of Paul VI, but rather the vernacular translations that developed after the council. The first efforts, in the 1965 missal were not bad at all. They should have stopped right there, but didn't. Although I must admit, the 2010 revisions helped the NO translation greatly.

    Cranmer? This is getting into the realm of conspiracy theories and trad craziness. I suspect the translators may not have been that familiar with Cranmer.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    CharlesW

    Why is it that anytime someone counters your opinion you call it a conspiracy theory?

    And to the point, all vernacular translations are rooted in THE vernacular translation. The translators were quite familiar with Cranmer. They were part of his church.

    And as far as the reputation of Bugnini this is from the well known works of Michael Davies:

    Exit Archbishop Bugnini

    As for Archbishop Bugnini, in 1975 he fell suddenly and dramatically from power. Pope Paul VI dismissed him without any reason being given, just as Pope John had done, and he was banished to Iran as Pro Nuncio. His admirers throughout the world were outraged, and feared that the entire future of the liturgical revolution was in danger. Their fears were groundless. In the year before his downfall he had been able to announce with pride and satisfaction that the liturgical reform was "a major conquest of the Catholic Church" which had its "ecumenical dimensions." 8 I wouldn't want to quarrel with that judgment. There are grounds for believing that Archbishop Bugnini was dismissed by Pope Paul VI after the Pope had been given evidence proving that he was a Freemason. I have published the evidence for this allegation in my book, Pope Paul's New Mass. Archbishop Bugnini termed me "a calumniator" for doing so, and denied the accusation.

    In some ways I am sorry that the issue was ever raised as it makes the important question appear to be whether the Archbishop was a Mason or not. The important question is whether or not he destroyed the liturgy of the Roman Rite rather than his motive for doing so. Even if he was motivated by a sincere desire to serve the Church it does not alter the fact that, as Professor Berger expressed it, "a thoroughly malicious sociologist, bent on injuring the Catholic community as much as possible . . . could hardly have done a better job."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I don't believe the intent of the liturgists at Vatican II was to reproduce Cranmer. What you get into with this type of thing, is the same "authorities" quoting each other. It's like reading The Wanderer as your only source of information, or for that matter, only getting information from Fox News. There is not much in the way of independent verification. There is a lot of evil intent implied, when I think sheer incompetence and colossal blundering on the part of the reformers would be more accurate.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    I don't believe the intent of the liturgists at Vatican II was to reproduce Cranmer.
    Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it is not true.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    And just because you say it doesn't mean it is. LOL.

    The intent I remember fell into the ecumania of Paul VI who wanted unity even if it meant throwing the baby out the door. He was naïve and the unity he envisioned could never have worked in the practical realm. It seemed to me, having witnessed the times, he and his reformers really believed that if we could only be more like the Protestants, they would all rush to join us. In truth, the vast majority of them never wanted much to do with us. The barriers that existed between us had not so much to do with rubrics as with significant doctrinal differences. It was foolish to think changing rubrics would minimize doctrinal differences. The Protestants for the most part, hated us and didn't trust us.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    I am not the one who said it. It was documented by the Pope's close friend. (Guitton)[see above]
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    He said there was a resemblance, not a deliberate duplication. The local Episcopalians were not saying their liturgies facing the congregation until after we did it. Then, they moved the altars out from the wall, as did the local Lutherans. The common lectionary, which since 2010 is no longer common, had a large effect on all this. I don't recall ever seeing a Calvinist mass, and given their hatred of us, I doubt it ever existed.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    from:

    The Book of Common Prayer: The Texts of 1549, 1559, and 1662 edited by Brian Cummings
    Picture 18.png
    577 x 432 - 119K
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    It's been said, and I didn't originate this, that the English church emerged from the Reformation fully Catholic in appearance and Protestant in doctrine. True, I think. At the coronation of the son of Henry VIII, the bread and wine were left on the altar and were never consecrated, so I have read. The point being to show nothing supernatural was happening. When you get into the period of Cromwell, the Presbyterians were in power and the Catholic appearing aspects disappeared. The English church has ever since batted back and forth between whether it wanted to be more Catholic or more Presbyterian. When I was a teenager, the Episcopal clergy - no women then - were not called "Father" and did not wear chasubles, but dressed in robes like Protestant ministers. Some didn't even wear collars. They have since decided they like looking like Catholics so our type vestments are worn by them. They can't seem to make up their minds, or so it would seem. LOL.

    BTW, I don't dismiss what you have been saying, Francis. I think some of our problems stem from being led by incompetents who were not capable enough to plot or execute elaborate conspiracies.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Yah, well, Charles, Bugnini's work was not a "conspiracy" and nobody said it was.

    It was his work and that of others, like-minded to one degree or other. That's not "conspiracy," that's "committee." There IS a difference, but in fact, it WAS a committee.

    I do not subscribe to the post/hoc propter/hoc of 'the changes reduced Mass attendance, Confessions, Baptisms' (etc.) I think that the Western dissolution comes from prosperity and the mis-placed influence of 'evolution'.

    But I won't absolve Bugnini and his pals for their part in it--nor the Bishops who simply ignored the deconstruction of their Churches.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I don't disagree that they had an agenda, but am not convinced there was any Masonic conspiracy to undermine the Church. I have held that the cultural collapse and chaos of the time worsened changes that were being made in the Church. If we had more competent leadership, the extremes would not have happened. What I remember is that for any practical purpose, no one was in charge - or no one was willing to take charge.
  • I suspect the translators were not familiar with Cranmer.


    No, they weren't!
    All the evidence affirms that.
    And, the more's the pity!



    (And, come to think of it, their undoubted and unfortunate unfamiliarity with Cranmer is evidence enough that they were not trying to make the mass into a 'Protestant communion service'. We would have been far better off if, indeed, Cranmer had been breathing over their shoulders.)
  • "Some elements of Catholic worship and devotion no longer made sense in today's non-agrarian world."
    Such as? It's still an agrarian world, even if <1% of people are growing the food.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Ask the average Catholic what Rogation Days are? Let me know what they tell you after the glazed look. Ask about blessing the fields. Now they know about the blessing of animals for the feast of St. Francis, but fields? Probably not so much. When explaining Rogation Days, you will have to explain fasting which has nearly disappeared and is nothing like what it once was. The culture has changed and much of that agrarian mindset has disappeared. Maybe it still hangs on in rural areas, but I kind of doubt it in the U.S. It seems like processions for major feasts have also gone away. I haven't seen one in years.
  • Potent points, Charles, though I could but painfully accept that people's ignorance should be the foundation for liturgical praxis. And, in the Anglican Use we do still celebrate rogation days. And, sometimes we even 'beat the bounds'. But, it is the nature of Anglicans to be conservative, and knowledgeable about that about which we are conservative. It seems that Romans, on the other hand, are apt to say 'the people don't know that anymore, so rather than educate them, we will just toss it out the window'. I agree with the tenor of some of the statements here about the blessings of the EF, but emphatically deny their seeming assertion that there are no blessings resultant from the recent council. All the bad stuff associated with the Novus Ordo is due to the anti-ethos to which many subjected it, not to any inherent fault (except rubrics which were too lenient and too numerous).
  • MJO, that's kind of my point. Where our food comes from is a life issue. We can talk about abortion occasionally, but never about gluttony; that might depress fish fry sales. If we're going to ignore the agrarian element, let's ditch half the Bible, which is founded on agrarian imagery. "A factory owner called the temp agency at 6 AM for workers to get a rush order out. At 9 he called for some more, and likewise at noon..."
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    but am not convinced there was any Masonic conspiracy to undermine the Church.


    Only Satan has an agenda 'to undermine the Church.' Collaborators are always welcome, of course.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    As a footnote to my comment above about Msgr. Ferrer, I came across some interesting remarks by Fr. Hunwicke of the Our Lady of Walsingham ordinariate in England regarding Msgr. Anthony Ward, who along with Msgr. Ferrer, was canned at the Congregation for Divine Worship the other day by the new team in the Vatican. (Rorate Caeli has of course referred to this as "the purge of the Ratzingerians.")

    Well, Msgr. Ferrer and Msgr. Ward had extensive plans to reform the New Mass along traditional lines and to restore Gregorian chant to pride of place in the Novus Ordo.
    Fr. Hunwicke has some choice comments on significance of the untimely exodus of Msgrs. Ward et Ferrer:

    "I think it is a shame that Anthony Ward has been sacked from the CDW; and it is particularly bad news for those whose liturgical bias is to make the best they can of the Novus Ordo, and who hope to see it evolving on sound lines. He has done a vast amount of scholarly work on the texts of the B Paul VI Missal, and knows which bits are ancient and from the traditio, which bits are novelties, and which bits have been tinkered with, and why. Such men are a lot rarer than they used to be.

    Depending on how long this pontificate lasts, I cannot help wondering if Reform of the Reformers might increasingly find themselves in the position of having to acknowledge that the Vetus Ordo is not only the Gold Standard, but is also the only practical way ahead."
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Depending on how long this pontificate lasts, I cannot help wondering if Reform of the Reformers might increasingly find themselves in the position of having to acknowledge that the Vetus Ordo is not only the Gold Standard, but is also the only practical way ahead."
    i have subscribed to this notion for years
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    JulieColl: ... Fr. Hunwicke ... comments ... that Anthony Ward ... has done a vast amount of scholarly work on the texts of the B Paul VI Missal, and knows which bits are ancient and from the traditio, which bits are novelties, and which bits have been tinkered with, and why. Such men are a lot rarer than they used to be.

    Maybe Ward now has time to create a weblog
    and post quotes and comments.
    Then anyone could read and learn and the rarity would decrease.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Is everyone or nearly everyone on this Forum so ignorant of the praxis curiae romanae that they fail to realize that the overwhelming majority of the minutanti clerics working there stay for a 5-year term, perhaps with one 5-year renewal, and then return to their home diocese or religious order. There is nothing sinister about that, except perhaps in the minds of those who seem always to be looking for new conspiracies.

    Yes, Fr. Tony Ward is a good scholar. He served for more than 10 years at the CDWDS. It was either time for him to go back to his religious community or to move up the ecclesiastical ladder to at least the "secretary" position in a congregation, most likely one other than the CDWDS. And that would have meant episcopal ordination. For whatever reasons (and who really knows?), that move was not made. So he goes home. Sic transit gloria ecclesiae.

    I'm sure there will always be copies of Fr. Ward's books in the CDWDS library, in case someone needs to tap his scholarship about liturgical texts. He does not need to be there in person for that to happen.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    There's also this invention called the telephone...and the internets...

    ...I've made substantial use of it to gain wisdom from my predecessors at every job I've had...
    Thanked by 2Gavin Adam Wood
  • Positive aspects of Council's reforms?

    1. Mass in the vernacular. A good thing since too many never understood the Latin, they were just there while it was being spoken.
    2. Role of the laity in evangelization - a good concept never given a chance to succeed.
    3. Participation in singing and text - Intended, and still a good idea. Unfortunately, taken over by too many advancing personal agendas.
    4. Reforms in rubrics - There has been some tightening up even in the EF. Some elements of Catholic worship and devotion no longer made sense in today's non-agrarian world.
    5. A bit of de-clericalization. Now we know priests and religious don't walk on water. Unfortunately, they are as flawed as the rest of us.



    Response:

    When Mass was in Latin, 3 of 4 Catholics in America attended Mass weekly. Now that number is 1 in 4, and many of those don't accept what the Church teaches. If the vernacular is such a boon -- which I might have been willing to accept -- why did the vernacular introduction coincide with a reduction in lay cooperation with the mandates of the Church, and of God himself?

    That brings up the second point. How can the laity evangelize if they're not attending Mass or believing what the Church has always taught? Please understand that I'm not blaming the vernacular translation for a collapse of the practice and knowledge of the faith, merely asserting that those who don't have something can't give it to others.

    Alius Cantus Aptus surely gives rise to the question: "singing what text? Even if (which I'm not sure I'll concede) singing in the vernacular is superior to doing so in Latin, with one parish singing "Sing a new church into being" and another singing "all are welcome" and another singing "We come to tell our story", and still another singing "See us Lord around your altar ... but a sign", are we really singing our Catholic faith? I'm not opposed to the use of the vernacular in principle (since, after all, the Douay-Rheims was prepared with an eye to bringing Holy Writ to the people of England in English); nevertheless, in that case the vernacular strengthened the faith, and in the modern situation weakened it.

    I don't have time right now to respond to the non-agrarian society claim.

    Declericalization? You mean that priests who make up the liturgy on their own authority aren't clericalists, but those who follow what the Church has always taught are? Truly? Seriously?
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    In my experience the "Liberal" clergy (priests and seminarians) who bemoan the clericalism of the days before the council (old and young) are far more clericalist than the "Traditionalist" ones. To be honest I have been greatly edified by the priests and seminarians of the FSSP that I have met - they are nothing like the 'little monsters' that attend and are issuing from the Diocesan seminaries. YMMV