Joining the Cringe Fringe with you.

For what it's worth, "Pescador de Hombres" was only composed in 1979, so it's not a long-standing part of anyone's culture.

Forgive me if I approach "culture" with a jaundiced eye. I hear so much locally from immigrants, both legal and not, about their wonderful cultures. When I look at those cultures I see political systems that have deprived their citizens of any real freedom, economic systems that have kept their nations in poverty for how many centuries now, and "cultures" that made those homelands so uninhabitable their citizens had to leave their homes. I hope they keep their "culture" and don't share it, since I don't want it to do for me what it has done for them.

As to music, it is a mistake to accept any collection of music as defining the cultures of all Hispanic countries. Their music is all over the map from untrained and untalented musicians, to some of the best music and musicians in the world. It varies widely from place to place. I would not go to Venezuela and expect to find the same music in worship I would find in Guatemala or Mexico City. I don't see music so much in terms of culture, but in terms of secular and sacred. The secular stuff doesn't belong in church. Chonak is right about "Pescador..." It is contemporary crap.

Thanks everyone for your input!

I guess what I was looking for was what exactly the Church says about this...most church documents I read about music in the OF Mass are so vague (probably rightly so) and really seem like we should leave it up to our best judgment when choosing music. Sing to the Lord from the USCCB is probably the best one that comes to mind.

We all have the same problems. During the late 1960s through the 1970s, the bishops absolved themselves of any responsibility for sacred music. It really went to pot. There is hope since music seems to be coming back to what it should have always been. All of us keep working and praying.

I was at my favorite Mexican restaurant in the DFW Metroplex (Los Molcajetes) a few months ago and there was a Mariachi band. I asked if they knew Pescador de Hombres and they did.

Wonderful song for eating tacos and drinking margaritas.

Wait. What were we talking about?

That's exactly why I ask, Tim, and my feeling exactly (no one listens to those folks). I have similar experiences at my parish, and I wish there was something I could do.

For the record, my 81-year old grandma loves Pescador de Hombres and loves to sing it - probably one of her all-time favorites. Whether it's appropriate for Mass or not, that's the question. Granted, that's not the only piece in question but just an example...seems like everyone took it and ran with it, lol.

I wish someone would use the myriad of Flor y Canto "tunes" and make contrapuntal, choral SATB hymn settings with different harmonies...sometimes I wish I were an organist :/

Mariachi exists because Mexico was for a time part of the Hapsburg empire. It is a descendant of the European polka brass band. Calling it part of authentic Mexican culture, in the sense that it has roots in the traditional music of the Mexican Volk, is ridiculous. It is the result of a mixing of cultures and influences from different parts of the world. Mariachi is every bit as Euro-centric as any Renaissance or Baroque polyphonic compositions from the great Mexican Cathedrals.

And the Spanish language comes from .... SPAIN, not from traditional Mexican culture. Anyone trying to pass off Spanish-language brass band and accordion music from the 1800s as somehow intrinsic to Mexican native culture - well, must be singularly ignorant.

The point of all this is that Mariachi has no more right to be considered "authentically Mexican" and thus a centerpiece of Vatican II "inculturation" than does the Latin polyphonic repertoire in European style of the Mexican Renaissance and Baroque.
Now, if you can show me authentic indigenous folk music of the various native cultures present in the country now called Mexico, we can have a fruitful discussion of how that music can interact with the Roman Rite.

The American church's approach to "Latino" music seems incredibly condescending and stereotype-driven to me.

Soprano Violin,

I have a book here at the house called Papal Legislation on Sacred Music.

Additionally, in order to implement the regulations (even those in the last 50 years, which sometimes seem vague) one needs to do what is called sentire cum Ecclesia (literally, "to think with the Church"). Here are some examples of what I mean:

Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are allowed, but should be rare because there should be sufficient priests, who are consecrated (set apart) in part for the confection of the sacraments, and because no one should casually touch the Sacred Host, and because each particle of the Sacred Host contains the whole Christ. No casual attitude with something Holy makes sense.

Vestments and musical instruments should be of the highest quality, set aside for the work of the Temple of God. Any instrument associated with the purely secular isn't intentionally set aside for the work of the Temple of God. (Look at how most pianos are played at Mass, to see why this makes sense). Majestic instruments -- think brass, because they are associated with royalty and dignity -- are right, and properly used in the Temple of God, but could be disqualified if they are used in such a manner as suggests an entirely secular purpose.

Since it is impossible (hold your fire, please, and read) for a non-Catholic to "assist" at Mass, even while he can be present in the building while Mass occurs, it logically follows that non-Catholics should not ordinarily exercise liturgical roles. Analogically, a non-baptized person can't receive the other sacraments, even as he can make whatever responses the server makes. He lacks a necessary component. He, similarly can't be a godfather.

God bless,

Chris

Mariachi exists because Mexico was for a time part of the Hapsburg empire. It is a descendant of the European polka brass band.

So THAT'S why it sounds so much like polka? Is there a connection here to why their beer is so good, too? I've been wondering about this recently...

...part of the Hapsburg empire...

Quite!. But to be more precise, it was the Hapsburg Archduke Maximillian propped up by French military of the Second Empire. The French had small instrumental ensembles which played gay music at their weddings, hence 'marriage' becomes 'mariachi'. So, ironically, the mariachi band is Napoleon III's (or Maximillian's) last laugh. The Mexicans hated the occupying French, so they have ended up with the French 'marriage' band as a national institution!

That's not the only foreign import. The American occupiers during the Mexican-Amercian war often sang a southern folk song, 'Green Grows the Cotton', while marching. From this came the derisive Mexican term, gringos, for their North American neighbours.

Interesting, too, about the beer!

Alas, I can't Google any song called "Green grows the cotton". Gringo is in 18c dictionaries, and Wikipedia thinks griego (those who sing Kyrie eleison instead of Señor ten piedad) is the likely etymology. Mariage is apparently even less likely than Marie-H. All very nice stories, though!

Ken,

Since it's impossible to make a blend of acceptable music for both Columbians and Argentines and Puerto Ricans, use Latin, a language which "belongs" to all of them, equally.

Eft, that really helps! Thanks so much.

Here is my tuppence worth -

I think a large part of this comes from the Mass being the only worship that most people attend, instead of the summit, where the base of the mountain consists of LOTH, pious devotions, prayers at home, Benediction, processions, charismatic praise meetings, etc etc.

There is lots of music associated with those things which are good and proper in their place, but not for the Mass liturgy where the Propers are mainly a meditation on Scripture, supported by chant. For example some people would love us to play the same music we play at our prayer meeting at Mass, but we refuse, one is for loose, charismatic prayer, the other is liturgy and has a different flow. I like them both, but they are not the same.

One problem is that having deprived the people of their outlet for more popular religious devotions, the secular has invaded their daily lives, and the popular religious devotional stuff has invaded the liturgy. We need to do various things to correct this, it is more than a musical problem.

Secondly, speaking of inculturation and music -
Because I am Irish, it has some interesting facets here. Firstly, what is my cultural heritage? For the first 80 years after independence, we sort of airbrushed out our heritage when part of the UK. This year, 2014, is the FIRST time there was an official commemoration of the tens of thousands of Irish men who fought and died in the FIRST World war. Politics is part of culture - and it can be distorting. We love our Georgian heritage of buildings, but neglect our Georgian heritage in music.

Secondly, Irish traditional music is modal, because of the centuries of influence from monastic chant. So there is a natural fit between Irish tunes and Gregorian chant, something too few have explored in any decent way, though the best work to date is from this guy here. As well as being a sublime organist, he is a champion uilleann pipe player, so he understands both choral and church music and Irish music from the inside out. Most simply fdo not have that level of expertise.

Ronan McDonagh and fuaimlaoi

But there are also modern Irish composers (like Liam Lawton) whose brand of popified irishy liturgical music is like a (well words fail me, my charity left long ago.) Suffice it to say it is as really Irish as the 1950's Hollywood leprechaun, sure and begorrah.

You can't have inculturation is you don't have a culture. Among the young here, the culture is predominantly pagan, anti-Catholic and secular. We don't need to incorporate that into the church, just the opposite, we need to go out and evangelise it.

You can't have inculturation is you don't have a culture. Among the young here, the culture is predominantly pagan, anti-Catholic and secular. We don't need to incorporate that into the church, just the opposite, we need to go out and evangelise it.

Word.

As B-16 reminded us, "cult" is the root of "culture," and "cult" has to do with What Is Worshipped (and how it is worshipped.)

So yah: the Culture of Catholicism is not like the culture of secularism, and one could make the case that they are antitheses.

It is all Irish. All culture in the world is Irish.
The new world was settled from Europe.
Europe was evangelised by Irish monks.
Of course, before Ireland was Christian, we were trading down the west coast of Europe, to Greece and beyond.
Undoubtedly we had huge spiritual influence, so even the parts of Hellenic culture that flowed into Catholicism before Patrick got to Ireland had already been changed by the contact with Ireland.
And needless to say that had flowed further east.
Then during the time of the British empire - so many Irish men or seeming Englishmen with actual Irish ancestry, spreading around the world.
And king David had red hair (1 Samuel 16:12 " Now he was ruddy and had beautiful eyes and was handsome.) clearly showing Irish ancestry.
And we all know that the whole world is descended from mitochondrial Eve, who migrated out of Africa.... and sure what have the Irish ever been doing but going off somewhere. We have only pooled in Ireland because it is an island and hard to get off.
Yep - and Riverdance is only our latest quest of further world domination.
Soon its going to be pole to pole Danny boy.
Or something like that.

Stuff sounds just like the Mexican welders I work with listen to on their mariachi radio stations. Its no better than second-rate rock musicians playing to a captive audience ("youth mass") or aspiring broadway rejects getting sing-songy with theologically troubling sap ("contemporary"/"big 3"). Its all parody masses.

Its "cultural" in the same sense as us gringos listening to 90's rock in the truck. Sure, to guys who grew up with that its the larger part of my experience in life. "Its part of my culture." So why can't I form a Nirvana-esque trio and sing at mass in that style?

Because mass shouldn't sound like the work truck, whether its a gringo or chicano crew.

You'd be right, Henry. But BonnieBede will tell you that "Mother Machree" is actually Chant--the Introit from XXXUBY Sunday of the year. Or something.

Jackson, mo chroi, every true Catholic holds to the true line of the British throne, I myself have wept at the tomb of dear Cardinal Henry Benedict Stuart, so fittingly buried in St Peters. Perhaps with the independence of Scotland we will see the Stuart line restored. The Scots, a marvellous, warlike race of poets, are of course, originally Irish.
And we all know that we are sons of God by adoption and if that's good enough for God, it will be good enough for St Patrick, who is Irish by adoption, though of course , coming from either Brittany or Wales he was Celtic, which means he was already Irish, though not quite as Irish as he later became.

That would be mother mo chroi, or 'mother of my heart' ; a more fitting title for our Lady I cannot imagine, after all in the book of Revelations she is referred to as the mother of all who keep the commandments of God (Rev12:17). And of course that nice angel, Michael went to her defence, he is obviously an Irish angel, pious and loves his mother, but likes a bit of a fight, and of course Michael is a very common Irish name. Mother mo chroi could go nicely on the feast of the Assumption.

As my former pastor of 38 years often said, "The Irish ruined the Church." He was German, btw, but I knew what he meant. The 19th century immigrants brought with them a morbid, guilt-obsessed spirituality which the U.S. Germans did not share. Given conditions in Ireland, they came from a low, low, low church mentality. We still suffer the effects of that in the U.S. Church. For what it's worth, the liturgy celebrated by St. Patrick was more like the eastern liturgies than anything post-Trent people would recognize.

Not to knock them, since that is not my intent, but a question that the more enlightened here can perhaps answer. Are the Irish who came to the U.S. in droves responsible for the low mass mentality that dominates here?

Are there any Plantagenets still alive?

Dad, the reason I asked, is that the Irish could not celebrate a proper mass for centuries under British oppression. Masses were held, often secretly, and were simple affairs. That sounds a lot like low mass to me. Given all that, there couldn't have been a high mass tradition familiar to them.

Stuff parishes? The Irish were no different than Hispanics today - and I don't know if they came legally or illegally since I don't know the laws in force at the time. Given the decline in mass attendance, many pastors would love to have their parishes "stuffed" with warm bodies, and if they could chip in on the collection, even better!

Chas: ....as outlined in the book "Why Catholics..." Same thing happened during wars, when Masses were held in the field.

But there are other reasons for the Low Mass, such as a monastery (or seminary) full of priests, and only one could have a sung (presumably solemn high) Mass--the others were at side-altars, quietly saying their own. That was the case at the Milwaukee Seminary until around 1960 or so.

So, while the Solemn High (or its licit deviation, the "High" Mass) remained the ideal, it was simply impractical or impossible to celebrate.