Or sleep deprived, hung over, AND hypercaffeinated. Then show up late but eager on Sunday morning.

We Catholics do things both/and. You might be right: if we all do this, the HR person will explain that employment practices need help.

AND you'll never work in a Catholic Church again.

This is not true. I can and did prove this.

After I was fired, I requested a meeting with the Bishop and Pastor, citing Recourse under Canon Law.

I did get a meeting, the Pastor refused to meet and I ended meeting the the Vicar General instead, no Recourse Meeting since the Pastor refused to meet with me and the Bishop.

The Vicar General mentioned that they had a lawyer that worked for the diocese for free.

In a conversation with the HR officer this came up and I mentioned that I had talked with a lawyer. I was then unable to get an interview in any church in the Diocese. I was actually called and interviewed the day after firing, this by a Catholic high school, but the chaplain was blocked from hiring me.

So, I'd never work again in a Catholic Church, right?

The other Catholic high school in the diocese then had a sudden vacancy for choir and music for the Masses. And they contacted me.

To be permitted to be hired I had to have a telephone conference with the HR officer who explained that I was being given a second chance, though I had "threatened to sue the Diocese". I had not done this and she told me that I had told her that I had a lawyer and that meant that I was going to sue the Diocese...and I said I had a lawyer just because I was old by the Vicar that they had a lawyer that worked for them for free. She then countered and said that they had to pay that lawyer.

So by the time I had completed that phone call I was permitted to teach at the high school. Working with the outgoing choral director, we produced a CD of her Girls's Choir singing chant, polyphony and chanting the Rosary. The school purchased 1,000 of them to use to promote the school to parents and grandparents. I was able to arrange for it to be available through print-on-demand (no inventory cost) with Amazon.com, with all proceeds going to the school indefinitely.

Arranged for the former director (who went on to much more lucrative employment in her field - Math background and foreign language that made her fit the job like a T) to appear with the choir at a CD Release Party at Barnes & Noble that included a Book Fair with proceeds going to the school as well.

You see, Virginia, you CAN go home again.

No one in the diocese, including the Bishop, can block you from being hired by a priest - as you can see, this works both ways.

It's like the old story, How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb? One, but it has to really, really want to be changed.

You have to find a priest that really, really wants to hire you. And that would be a priest we'd like to work for anyhow.

In my case, I was not seeking employment with a parish, and actually laughed at the pastor when he offered me the job.

What was it like? www.sjnmusic.com

Not only CAN you go home again, you can document what you did when you were there for the whole world to look at and think, hmmmm.

As I understand it, the priests in the Archdiocese of Chicago are unionized.

I oppose unionization because of the unions I know

.

So what's wrong with the union of priests in the Archdiocese of Chicago in your opinion? What do you know about this union that makes you oppose unions?

New pastor finds $300,000 in a secret fund - "If we ever need a new roof."

Never heard of accruals? Physical plant DOES deteriorate, ya'know. Perfectly licit reason to stash cash.

Employees wanting an increased share in a diminishing market. Gonna ride that Titanic all the way to the bottom, eh?

discreet

It's also a particularly sad problem, Lagunaredbob.
You're in my prayers.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

"... Doesn't like typical church choir people..."

At least where I'm from, " typical church choir people" usually have no academic interest in music: they enjoy singing and want to sing the pretty music they've become accustomed to. If you've got a doctorate in music, it can be frustrating to deal with such people, at least when they exhibit the aforementioned attitude. However, many individuals are happy for the help that an expert can give, including academic musical instruction and specifically vocal instruction. This is what I've seen, but it also depends on the attitude of the DM, and his or her expectations.

I've been holding on to this for a while because I wasn't sure how to say it:

I don't think the problem is rooted in priests and other church officials who simply hire and fire at will as if it was some sort of aristocractic fox hunt. Especially when it comes to musicians, it is cultural: how we as Western cultures view our musicians. The popular view is Bohemian: the starving artist who is also WILLING to starve and sacrifice everything for the sake of the art. Therefore, we dont need to be paid for our work, since the art is payment enough.The four men in Puccinis La Boheme are a good example of this. People don't understand how we do what we do, and many simply assume that we just get up and do it. This is reinforced by the church hiring part time and sometimes under qualified individuals to direct and lead music for their parishes. The tough thing to hear is that although we claim that our abilities are God-given (and in some ways they are), they did not simply appear magically one day. Most people do not understand this.

The acceptance of part time jobs has told the church that it does not take a full time individual to do the job. For example, when I was offered my teaching position, they wanted me to teach three subjects and play for Mass three times per week, but they were offering part time and a very low salary. I told them no, as I needed something full time. They countered with full time and a full time salary. For this, I have dedicated myself to them and the success of their school: a dedication which is wrongly taken for granted in some locations.

It does not take someone with a degree to pick four hymns and play the keyboard at Mass, but without a certain depth of musical knowledge, there are serious limitations on what the person can do. I think that we need to send the message that administration of a music program at the parish level is NOT a part time job. We are not Bohemian starving artists who will sacrifice everything for our art. The problem is cultural, not administrative: pastors know that the job can be done part time or for free, does not require a degree or training (although it is preferred, they won't pay for it if they don't have to), and that there are people out there willing to do the job part time or free: they can just wait for that person to come along and say yes. We must show that this is not the case.

no question about it, a few college degrees ALWAYS make a better church musician.

F'r example, our DoM has a Ph.D. and absolutely ZERO facility with Chant; he considers any music with 'bible words' to be sacred music; and he really, really, dislikes typical church choir people.

Yah, that works, PGA. Keep humming that tune to yourself.

He has ZERO facility with chant because he's not interested in it. Has the pastor ordered him to become familiar with it and to implement it? I bet not.

Someone with a background as a professional, trained musician can be taught those skills, such as chant, and how to select appropriate music for mass.

I'll take someone with a music degree ANY DAY over one of these "self-taught" folks. They have years and years of learning and practicing to do to get up to par; your guy, if motivated, could learn the skills that you say he's lacking in one summer.

I'll take someone with a music degree ANY DAY over one of these "self-taught" folks.

Generally true, although when I see one of the self-taught folks who wants to learn, I give them all the help and encouragement possible. With degreed people, make sure that degree wasn't based on overtones in Ubangi drumming. Some of the music specialties can get a little out there.

Priests don't have families. They have 100% job security for life. They can eat free any time they are willing to wear a collar. Their "boss" is a very busy man in another city whom they see on an irregular basis. They don't have to worry about saving enough money to put their children through college, or whether their spouse will be okay with too much time away from the house. When a priest switches parishes, it is not accompanied by 3 to 6 other people having to find new jobs, schools, friends, prayer communities, etc.

The treatment of musicians by the church is not a musician problem, or a cultural problem. It is a celibate boss problem.

Contracts would help. Unions would make things worse.

The only real "solution" (assuming we aren't going to change priestly celibacy) is that seminaries and dioceses need to do more to beat into the heads of priests how incredibly different life is for married people with families than it is for single people.

(I'd be willing to bet that if you thought real hard about the priests you know who are really good about this stuff, most or all of them have siblings or close childhood friends with families.)

Since THAT isn't ever going to happen, the most rational course of action is for individual musicians to grow up and learn about contracts. You can't save rhe world, or even the profession. But you can save yourself.

As usual, Adam has a great point: the differences between the vocations (married vs religious life) are quite extreme. It is nearly impossible for someone in one vocation to completely understand the other.

@PGA...speaking as one of those "self-taught" individuals you so disdain...its a shame that you believe and promote the stereotype that pursuing a passion and learning outside the anointed path of college is somehow inferior.

I have not found that to be the case.

If you want to learn more about making church music a wonderful career, making the money you want, and getting the job you want - there is a lecture at the Colloquium this year on Wednesday that focuses on that! </ shamelessselfpromotion >

Priests don't have families. They have 100% job security for life. They can eat free any time they are willing to wear a collar. Their "boss" is a very busy man in another city whom they see on an irregular basis. They don't have to worry about saving enough money to put their children through college, or whether their spouse will be okay with too much time away from the house. When a priest switches parishes, it is not accompanied by 3 to 6 other people having to find new jobs, schools, friends, prayer communities, etc.

The treatment of musicians by the church is not a musician problem, or a cultural problem. It is a celibate boss problem.

Contracts would help. Unions would make things worse.

The only real "solution" (assuming we aren't going to change priestly celibacy) is that seminaries and dioceses need to do more to beat into the heads of priests how incredibly different life is for married people with families than it is for single people.

(I'd be willing to bet that if you thought real hard about the priests you know who are really good about this stuff, most or all of them have siblings or close childhood friends with families.)

Since THAT isn't ever going to happen, the most rational course of action is for individual musicians to grow up and learn about contracts. You can't save rhe world, or even the profession. But you can save yourself.

The very first thing that I think we should unanimously focus on is contracts.

In our diocese, the legal side has convinced the bishop that no one should have a contract.

We need to persuade and convince all bishops that, although something might be legally expedient, it does not make it moral or ok to do.

There are plenty of things that are legally expedient to do that the Church does not do and would not do. This needs to become one of them.

I believe that we CAN accomplish this - but we need a strong, steady, unanimous drumbeat from the CMAA, NPM, the lay ministry association, and everyone else. And the drumbeat needs to be unrelenting. Eventually, individual bishops will buy in - and then things will start to fall in line.

Who is willing to start?

Yes I've studied at the college level. English and History...not music. I will have my first college level music class this fall.

I had my first "formal" music lesson two years ago (at the age of 43) when I began studying piano and harp. My music experience prior was singing in church choirs and in highschool choir.

Much of what I have learned regarding music (sacred or otherwise) comes from picking up a book on the subject, reading it and asking questions of members of this forum.

I do agree with you that a lot of damage has been done by ignorant people. My point was...some of them don't have degrees...and some of them do. Educational path doesn't determine understanding or wisdom. It depends on the individual and what he/she makes of the opportunities that are presented.

The question, I think, is credentialism vs. quality, and results of non-quality. If a doctor or a policeman doesn't know his stuff, people can die. If a musician doesn't, people only want to die. ;-) The raw metric for musicality is: can you perform? If you can, how you got there isn't relevant. If you can't, ditto. Most of what one learns in college (aside from private lessons and auditory skills) is the stuff that gets you from 90% to 100% as a musician. Now, that's not meaningless; in a highly competitive field, you need that. But your typical parish MD (as opposed to cathedrals) is not a competitive position.

Why would we set our profession's bar low?

When it comes to Latin-rite liturgy, validity + liceity = 100% of the bare minimum. In too many places, even this standard is neither reached nor striven for.

Music simply doesn't factor into that equation, despite its "inestimable value".

We musicians can advocate for a liturgical+musical manifestation of the Greatest Commandment and advise the competent territorial authorities if they are willing to listen—or if one wishes to sow seeds, teach seminarians who may not be receiving any liturgical instruction beyond the minimum (let alone the care and feeding of lay church employees, professional musicians included)—but at the end of the day, we are not the bar-setters.

PGA, you do seem a tad cranky with your retorts. I clearly preemptively stated I don't endorse any skills acquisition philosophy. But to infer my example amounted to a "cop out" was just plain spiteful and unnecessary. And I'm quite capable of putting my own foot in my mouth without anyone else's assistance, thanks.

I'm all for it. How can I test out?

I have a terminal degree (DMA) and also have spent a great deal of time studying the documents of the Church (including the writings of the Holy Fathers), the history of Western liturgical music, have read articles and other writings by noted scholars in the field. I do not have an official degree in "sacred music" or "liturgical music." However, as I have a terminal degree in music, autodidactic study is considered a valuable and respected mode of further learning. One need not pursue knowledge through "professional channels" in all cases. I have also been on the faculty of a Catholic seminary for the last four years, teaching sacred music courses, and so I have "credentials".

In Wendi's case, I know her to be quite knowledgeable, and while much of her study of sacred music has not been undertaken via formal institutional routes, she has nonetheless received solid guidance over the last three years, and can speak intelligently and articulately about these matters, citing documents and writings, principles and ideologies and even constructing very insightful and well-reasoned arguments for the very positions we seek to uphold in the field. Perhaps as well as, if not better than, some folk here.

How do I know this? Because I've been mentoring her for the last three years.
Simply because Wendi has not paid for the training she's received as my "pupil", and simply because I am not able to officially confer upon her a piece of paper indicating she's jumped through the requisite hoops, navigated the red tape, bureaucracy and paid through the nose for the privilege of putting letters after her name, does not mean that she is in any way an "amateur" or is incapable of serving the Church in a very valuable and meaningful way.

I don't feel the least bit threatened by the fact that from time to time in recent months she has taught me a few things, even with my terminal degree and experience.

Mechtilde de Magdaburg put it best: "Stupidity is sufficient unto itself. Wisdom never ceases learning."

If we refuse to acknowledge those who have acquired their knowledge in unconventional ways by marginalizing them and pandering to the "status quo", we damn ourselves to irrelevance and become a self-serving and ever-diminishing circle, doomed to fail for our own lack of vision.

The raw metric isn't "can you perform:" it's "do people complain when you perform?"

/ shamelessselfpromotion >

There's always one on every forum.

Only one?

I'll take someone with a music degree ANY DAY over one of these "self-taught" folks. They have years and years of learning and practicing to do to get up to par

Generally speaking, using a degree as a go/no-go flag demonstrates weak interviewing, reference-checking, position-description writing, and hiring skills. I interviewed and hired a broad cross-section of professionals for quite a long time (think decades). "Degree required" is the easy way out.

The knowledge required for RC musicians is not merely 'keyboard,' nor 'choral.' It also includes a large dose of liturgical knowledge and (ideally) some facility with Latin. That is a rare combination of skills, and that doesn't take into account the current call for software/hardware knowledge and budgetary smarts, not to mention a modicum of people skills.

These days, degrees are handed out like candy at Christmas. Take a hard look at late-20's degreed individuals and see for yourself what they do NOT know.

As to 'chant skills can be learned': well, yes and no. Anybody can learn to read Chant, including 8-year-olds. But to KNOW Chant and be able to impart what is being done therein? Not quite so easy.

YMMV.

You know...I don't think we disagree that certain skill sets are necessary. I think the disagreement comes with the idea that having a college degree is the only barometer of whether or not a person has the needed skill sets.