Churches are notorious for at-whim terminations and not paying into unemployment insurance

How's that for a premise masquerading as a conclusion?

OK... maybe in a perfect world this would be a good thing to do.

But this is NOT a perfect world.

IF you do this, other priests WILL hear about it.

They will be TERRIFIED to hire you.

Maybe they know your former boss is difficult to work with; maybe they don't... Maybe they even think that you were legitimately fired unfairly! It doesn't matter. They won't likely be willing to risk it. Because, after all, you could just be a lunatic that files frivolous complaints and lawsuits.

If you find yourself fired unfairly, I'm very sorry, but it is probably best to shake the dust from your sandals and find a new job.

I really don't understand why the musicians of a diocese can't unionize. Collective bargaining, contracts, arbitration over firings, all that.

Someone will say "Well then they would just use volunteers for music." Sure, some would. But many can't or wouldn't, nor would many find volunteers willing to run the choir, play on Sundays for up to 6 masses, etc. I believe that MANY parishes would not be able to replace paid musicians - in fact most - and would have to just deal with the union.

Is there a legal or other reason that this can't be done?

OK... maybe in a perfect world this would be a good thing to do.

But this is NOT a perfect world.

IF you do this, other priests WILL hear about it.

They will be TERRIFIED to hire you.

Maybe they know your former boss is difficult to work with; maybe they don't... Maybe they even think that you were legitimately fired unfairly! It doesn't matter. They won't likely be willing to risk it. Because, after all, you could just be a lunatic that files frivolous complaints and lawsuits.

If you find yourself fired unfairly, I'm very sorry, but it is probably best to shake the dust from your sandals and find a new job.

I agree with you, but I guess the idea is that EVERYONE, universally, should just start doing this if they are terminated. Then it becomes not "Oh, Matthew is the one crazy one who did this," but rather "Well, that is what they all do when terminated under any hazy circumstances."

You could just have been working for a tyrant that fires for frivolous reasons and pressure from large donors, knowing that he and his priest buddies can and will do this over again because they have nothing to fear.

It's not about me or you getting even, it is about you or me having the _________ (insert your own favorite word here) to stand up and chance never working in a Catholic church again BUT improving the chance that these practices be recognized and eliminated.

In 100 years, no one will care that you shook the dust off your organ shoes and moved on. It will have made no difference to the future.

Insisting on fair treatment of people who work in churches is a social issue. Or isn't it?

It is really hard to get fired from a Protestant church music position.

Priests who fire without prior notice are administrators who fail to act as Christ himself would act.

We have priests who post here. Let's hear from them, give them an opportunity to see things from the viewpoint of what they think about fellow priests who do this...all the time.

I think its precedent, with Catholic school teachers and even priests in the Chicago archdiocese, is something we want to avoid. Once you unionize, it's hard to stay explicitly Christian. Imagine if there were unions in the early Church...

It's an idea whose time has come. And the union would be as explicitly Christian as it's members and leaders - which hopefully are, if they are serving as music directors.

garage bands are just looking for a place to play. Some will even pay to play in bars and such.
just put an add in the paper that the Catholic Church is looking for a rock band and you'll have no problem getting free music.
If you pay them $30 a head you would be surprised you will come out of the wood work just to get paid.

It's not that easy. And even the most boneheaded of priests wouldn't normally like the result that they produce.

Most priests TRY to be liturgically knowledgeable even if their knowledge is factually wrong! But they pride themselves on reading those OCP magazines or the office of worship bulletins or whatever - and I think most would reject this idea.

Another reason that the volunteer thing wouldn't really work - reliability.

Just think about your most dedicated choir members - people who are totally into the choir and its music. My most hard core ones miss one rehearsal or Sunday a month.

I can just imagine getting a garage band and saying "OK, so you will do this, EVERY single Sunday at 10 am, like, from now on, unless maybe one Sunday a year you get a replacement?" I can hear the response now "Whoa, no, no, I mean, we can help out sometimes, but next month we are traveling on the second Sunday, oh and the last Sunday, we did get a gig at a bar playing until 2 am SAT night, so I can't see that we'll be there Sunday morning, and then the next month is ..."

I actually think that all of this isn't as "pie-in-the-sky" as some might think.

NPM is a powerful force, and tends to get bishops to listen. If they made this their pet issue and hammered on it with the episcopal conference, sure some bishops would never listen. But some would. And eventually you'd start getting a "standard practice." And eventually some real good would come of it.

I think Noel is on the right track; but I also think a unionizing conversation should be had, and I think NPM should pound this issue - hard. Imagine what could come if Cardinal Dinardo told his fellow bishops that it is a moral issue that musicians should have contracts and insurance against unjust firing.

Please expand on how a union is antithetical to being Christian.

I'm fearing that the answer is going to have something to do with their traditional alliance with the democratic party, which, you know, everyone knows is anti-Christian.

Did I say that 'a union is antithetical to being Christian'?

No, but you seem to be implying it. You seem to think there's a problem with this idea.

the contract to define and an arbitrator to determine.

This works fine in other professions; cops are fired, and sometimes win their jobs back or not. Teachers can be fired and sometimes win their jobs back or not.

It would be the same with us.

Well it shouldn't be the same with us.
I want the pastor to be able to fire someone for working or volunteering for Planned Parenthood, I want him to be able to let someone go who engages in a same sex "marriage."
How long would that be possible if we allowed the government to become involved in Church employment issues to this extent?

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

Besides that - When contract negotiations go on, both sides have input and have to agree. It wouldn't be that hard for the diocese to insist that there be provisions in the contract about openly disagreeing with Church teaching.

Secondly: no contract can define "artistic capability," no matter that you may think so. And "financial problems" is going to be the catch-all trump card.

How does a contract define teaching success? How do you define the knowledge and skills needed to do any job?

AGAIN - This would be for the arbitrator to decide.

Mandating the possession of degrees and AGO certificates would be a GREAT place to start.

"Financial problems" is an excuse that only goes so far. Cities lay off cops when they have financial problems - but you better believe the union is vigilant and has their say - and the cops get brought back as soon as they are out of financial problems.

So you claim financial problems, but then invest $10,000 in the new lifeteen group? NOPE. They would cry foul.

This has worked quite well in other types of jobs and we are not so special or unique that it can't work with us too.

2001

8. The parish music budget will not fall below 7% of the total parish budget and shall contain line items as specified in the contract.

9. The Director of Music Ministries shall obtain continuing education in musical-liturgical education, particularly in the area of preparation/planning.
In addition, the Director of Music Ministries shall obtain continuing education in the area of communication with staff.
In addition, the Director of Music Ministries will be allowed one weekend off for a three-day retreat at the Diocesan Retreat Center.
Funds for this education are contained in the line items as specified in the budget.

10. The Parish music program shall be evaluated as follows:
a. Six parishioners, two from the music program appointed by the Director of Music Ministries, two from and appointed by the Liturgy Committee, and two selected at-large, shall meet three months before the end of the contract.
b. This Evaluation Committee shall examine the goals for the program as stated in this job description and evaluate the program based on those goals. The Evaluation Committee shall also comment on the overall condition of the program and the work of the Director of Music Ministries.
c. The Evaluation Committee shall submit a written report of their findings to the Director of Liturgy sixty days before the end of this contract.

11. The performance of the Director of Music Ministries shall be evaluated by the Director of Liturgy (or pastor) who shall review the evaluation of the program submitted by the Evaluation Committee and, based on the statement of personal goals contained in this contract, shall evalu- ate the work of the Director. This material will serve as the basis for any annual raise.

http://www.npm.org/Sections/images/DMMDSalaryGuidelines.pdf

"You want security? Get a job with Gummint--which is not the Church."

Considering how public sector employment has fared in the last six years, that's a trope that has an increasingly remote tether to reality.

Look for the union label,
When you are buying an ounce or a pound...

Or something like that. ;-)

Mine pulled the same on the asst. DRE and myself.

Pastor let KOC members handle the checkbook, no budget.

New pastor finds $300,000 in a secret fund - "If we ever need a new roof." and a total of 1.5 million these local KOC had hidden away from the former pastor...

"I really don't understand why the musicians of a diocese can't unionize."

Because the labor movement is a wholly owned subsidiary of international Marxism, with the attitude toward religion that that implies. (Not "the Democrat Party"). I'm with BruceL here: unionization of church employees has tended toward a weakening of the faith. Part of that is just the culture (sleep with union organizers, get up with fleas), but a more important reason is the structure of the relationship with unions as a financial agent. If the chief purpose of a union is to protect its members livelihoods (and isn't that the point?), then it must treat the church as an adversary. If a parochial school teacher teaches heresy (or publicly lives heresy, as in recent cases of same-sex 'marriage") and quiet correction has been unsuccessful, the union will try to prevent the firing, to the detriment of the Church's mission. Now, it could be claimed that a specifically Catholic union would not do this. Such a union, if effective, would deal with the heretic themselves. (which would make them more of a guild in dad29's sense). And in fact the unions in place are specifically Catholic institutions. I'll admit to being ill-informed on the inside baseball, but it doesn't seem that they are functioning much differently from secular unions. Another place where unions (AFM) have had an unfortunate effect: St. Agnes.

Here's another scenario: the DM/lead guitar of St. Timothy Leary is a member of the Catholic Musician's Guild. The pastor is rotated out, and new Fr. Christopher is a dedicated RotR-type. He finds out that DM can't really read round notes let alone square ones. Not only does he not want to change the parish music style, he is incapable of doing so. When Fr. kindly and regretfully lets him go, what does the union do?

Yes, I know organizing is permissible. I think that Leo XIII was imagining a union not of this world. I don't know how you square those two facts. I'm not opposed to musicians unionizing in principle. I just don't see it working in practice.

Unionization? We had that, we had the AGO, let's ask them how well that worked out for them. They put a church on the "black list",,, and by the end of the week, a new musician was in and playing.

A Diocese could avoid all this by having a simple, clear agreement drawn up that protects both sides and insists that each parish use it, to protect the diocese and the employee.

This.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

Yes, you can and will be branded and possibly never work in a Catholic church again - but that's also what can and will happen because you were fired anyhow.

IF we all do this, before long the Diocesan HR person will sit down with the priests and explain that they need to learn to follow fair employment practices and change will happen fast.

We Catholics do things both/and. You might be right: if we all do this, the HR person will explain that employment practices need help.

AND you'll never work in a Catholic Church again.

We Catholics do things both/and. You might be right: if we all do this, the HR person will explain that employment practices need help.

AND you'll never work in a Catholic Church again.

You can't fight EVERYONE. When two people get drunk and act disorderly, they go to jail. When 1,000 people do it, the police hold the perimeter and no one goes to jail, unless they go even farther over the top than everyone else.

If everyone demanded fair practices, the whole "you'll never work in a Catholic church" threat wouldn't be very effective - because they'd run out of people to work for them and ban.

I agree. Let's all get drunk and disorderly.