What's Wrong with Hail Mary: Gentle Woman, et al?
  • Contemporary,

    The Theotokos may have kept all sorts of things in her heart, and she may be the Mother most mild, but this song encourages crooning, not devotion to her. As such, it is an example of ego-massage.

    Now, to be fair, there are many other songs about which this criticism could be fairly expressed, too, but since this thread is about HMGW, the comment sticks to it.

    As examples of other songs which (even unconsciously?) promote crooning, the American standard tunes of O Little Town of Bethlehem and Away in a Manger must rank near the very top.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • As I mentioned previously, it is not a substitute for the "Hail Mary" prayer.


    Certainly. I just don't understand the issue with singing it at an appropriate time at Mass.
  • There is no appropriate time at Mass for narcissism.
    Thanked by 1dad29
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    narcissism ? ? please explain where you see narcissism.
  • Whether the repertoire is Glory and Praise, Taize, Gather Comprehensive, Breaking Bread or any of the P&W books whose names I don't know, the underlying philosophy is frequently that the music NOT sound Churchy. Surely this, alone, is grounds for disqualifying it for use in Church at a Church prescribed ritual?

    I haven't used HMGW in years, but it still rings in my ears occasionally.

    Narcissism is the practice of gazing at one's self in a pond and admiring the beauty of the pond's image. When I think of Schubert's Ave Maria, I don't hear devotional music, but a piece which was composed for a secular setting and adopted into the repertoire of many parish musical soloists.
  • The Theotokos may have kept all sorts of things in her heart, and she may be the Mother most mild, but this song encourages crooning, not devotion to her.


    I fail to see how HMGW encourages anything other than standard vocal technique.
  • I'll double-check for you, but I believe that HMGW and most of the rest of the Glory and Praise repertoire originated in solo artists. Ask Billy Joel if his work can/should be sung in Mass. Ask David Bowie. Ask Taylor Swift.
    Thanked by 1DavidOLGC
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Francis wrote:
    actually, the 'gentle woman' is The Great Queen in Battle Array...

    The Byzantines put this nicely when they sing this kontakion:
    Triumphant Leader, to you belongs our prize of victory!
    And since you saved us from adversity, we offer you our thanks:
    We are your people, O holy Theotokos!
    So as you have that invincible power, continue to deliver us from danger
    That we may cry out to you:
    Hail, O Virgin
    And Bride ever pure!


    If I understand aright, the Greek words rendered here as "Triumphant Leader" are more literally "Defending General"!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    HMGW is rather slow and dull, with long stretches sung on a single chord. The opening section presents the text of the Hail Mary prayer on just three chords (I still have the original guitar books!) Compared to most classic hymns, that is a glacially slow rate of harmonic change. Structured as it is, it is too musically impoverished to belong at Mass.

    But the piece can be saved. Take out the accompaniment, sing it a cappella, scrap the 6/8 meter, and sing it this way:
    image
    And it's suddenly less bad: it has more life and movement.

    Oh, and stop after the word "Amen." The rest of the lyrics are cloyingly sentimental, repetitive, the most banal poetry imaginable: light, bright; dove, love.

    Here's the GABC, for anyone who wants to complete the piece:
    %%
    (c3)Hail(e.) Ma(hh)ry,(h.) (,) full(kj) of(i) grace,(h.) (,) the(h) Lord(kk) is(j) with(i.) you;(h.) (;)
    bless(k)ed(k) are(k) you(k) a(j)mong(i) wo(h)men(e.) (,) and(e) bl{e}st(gxg) is(gxg) the(gxg) fr{u}it(f) of(e) your(d)
    womb,(e.) (,) Je(eh)sus.(h.) (:)
    Screenshot_20220131_022959.png
    446 x 286 - 16K
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    @ Chris Garton-Zavesky -
    But let's not ask Leonard Cohen or John Lennon!
  • Karu,

    If you get answers from either of these, let me know.
  • If you transposed this chant down to start at re and end at sol, you wouldn't need the accidental and it would appear to be in mode VIII, which arguably it is.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen chonak
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Thanks:
    %%
    (c4)Hail(d.) Ma(gg)ry,(g.) (,) full(ji) of(h) grace,(g.) (,)
    the(g) Lord(jj) is(i) with(h.) you;(g.) (;)
    bless(j)ed(j) are(j) you(j) a(i)mong(h) wo(g)men(d.) (,)
    and(d) bl{e}st(f) is(f) the(f) fr{u}it(e) of(d) your(c)
    womb,(d.) (,) Je(dg)sus.(g.) (:)
    image
    Screenshot_20220204_134008.png
    482 x 317 - 16K
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I can hear Dom Pothier spinning quite rapidly in his grave.