The Ultimatum
-
Well - after 5 years, it's been good while it lasted.
This is this Sunday's (Confirmation) music list - which has been the basic Menu at my parish for about 5 years.
Processional: Hymn: Serdeczna Matko
Introit: Proclaim a joyful sound - Lumen Christi
Kyrie: Mass VIII
Gloria: Mazarabic in English
Alleluia: Non vos relinquos - Graduale Romanum
Offertory: O Peoples, bless the Lord - SEP
Hymn: Come down, O Love Divine
Sanctus: Mass XVIII
Acclm.: Missal, form C
Agnus: Willan, Mass of St. Teresa
Communion: I will not leave you orphans - Lumen Christi
Anthem: It is a good thing - James Kent
Anthem: The strife is o'er - Henry Ley
Parish 'Antiphon': Maryjo krolowo Polski
Hymn: Lift high the Cross.
I have been told, that, after this Sunday, I am to cease singing the Kyrie and Gloria, go back to the mode VI Alleluia, and shelve the Propers - After nearly 5 years of option 1, we are now back to the 'Four hymn sandwich' -- because the pastor thinks we are 'losing people' i.e. $$$$$.
I know that many here have had similar issues, but I can't believe that after five years this happens -- as Cardinal Mahoney said when Bergoglio was elected: Good-bye High Church, hello Low Church.
Why the *** do we musicians put ourselves through all of the endless practicing and continued education, try our best to implement the Church's teaching when it all gets flushed down the toilet by pastoral fiat.
Orate fratres pro me. -
3-4 years is the usual length of time it takes for those of ill will in the parish to force the pastor's into firing a musician who is not doing what the ______ people who have the nerve to approach him want done.
You've achieved personal greatness by stretching it to 5 years!
The good Catholics, many raised in the care of holy priests and sisters stand back and let this happen purely because it beyond their understanding that a priest can be coerced.
And this almost always comes after a big event, just like this.
-
How truly sad this is ... and deplorable. When people ask you what happened to the good music and why can't it be brought back, tell them to take their complaints to the priest, vociferously. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so it is time for other squeakers to arise and make their thoughts known.
My prayers are with you.
-
A nice observation, CHG - except that the squeaky wheel that doesn't like something will always take precedence over the squeaky wheel that does. (Unless what it doesn't like is sacro-pop and faux folk rubish, in which case that's just too bad.) Somewhere this must be enshrined in canon law. It certainly seems to be taught in seminaries. It may be called Fr Weasle's Law... if I remember correctly.
-
It certainly seems to be taught in seminaries.
I was never taught such in the seminary. I can't even imagine the topic coming up. (Nothing very practical is taught in the seminary.)
I think it is learned on the golf course. I don't golf.
You are in my prayers, Salieri. -
A nice observation, CHG - except that the squeaky wheel that doesn't like something will always take precedence over the squeaky wheel that does.
In other words, what you're saying is that if any complaint occurs, things revert to the lowest common denominator. -
(Nothing very practical is taught in the seminary.)
Perhaps not in the one you attended, Father. Stories such as this one that Salieri is the victim of would seem to suggest that the chief concerns of clergy are those that might be called 'practical'. In this case, the (questionable, untested & unverified) judgment that 'we are losing people' because of your choices of music. Snap and unfair judgements by our clergy are motivated strictly by what they consider 'practical', whether their reasoning and conclusions are sound or not. Here is an example of pure unadulterated practicality coming from the mouth of a local seminary nabob in charge of priestly formation: '...the days of the praying priest are over; we are training administrators'... pure.mundane.practicality.
One wonders: if, after some time, it is noticed that 'we are still losing people even though we changed the music', will Salieri be allowed to resume the proper course of his music program? Probably not! There is more to this than meets the eye... or the ear. -
I can assure you that too many priests are not taught administration or basic business skills. Some are not even taught to preach well. You can't blame the seminaries for everything, either. If the seminarian doesn't have necessary talents or abilities, expecting seminary courses to compensate for that is unrealistic. The one thing I have noticed is that when attendance drops, the priests often blame everyone but themselves. Attendance drops for any number of reasons, some quite complicated.
-
Before more conjecture is offered up about "what exactly" is being taught seminarians in the US and elsewhere (such as Mexico, where surplus ordinands are sent to help up north) I would like to hear from Dr. Paul Ford, Adam Bartlett and even Fr. Ruff.
An adjunct question I would also inject into this scenario of decline, why are most prelates apparently hostile to inviting the FSSP into their dioceses?
First of all, they (bishops) should know that FSSP curricula focuses upon liturgy, and that there are increasing accounts of absolute turn-arounds in shuttered or failing urban parishes when FSSP is afforded the opportunity. -
I really feel for you. At my first DM position I worked for 2 yrs. trying to achieve that type of program. NJ was right on, I was berated after a big event. After a polite but intense falling out with the pastor, I knew it was best for me to leave, so I left quietly and unceremoniously. Now I'm the DM for the archdiocese and the cathedral. We use Gregorian chant, simple English propers and the better hymns. My pastor supports this. Support from your pastor is crucial.
You might succeed in a church where the pastor is not supportive of true sacred music, but only if he is open to the Holy Spirit. I've seen a pastor go from "I want guitars and clapping" to "Thank God our music is beautiful and not that happy-clappy stuff". But it took about 10 years of prayers, gentle-but-persistent education and always doing good music beautifully. I'll be praying for you, Sal.Thanked by 1expeditus1 -
You have my prayers, too, Henry. I know nothing about your individual situation, but I've pondered in the past: if 'chant' means a poorly trained priest mumbling approximate pitches, then that might not really appeal to the pips, and the priest himself might not like appearing at less than his best. I don't know how to divide it all up: good music, respectfully or ideally holily presented, vs. bad music done successfully.
-
'...focuses upon liturgy, and that there are increasing accounts of absolute turn-arounds in shuttered or failing urban parishes when FSSP is afforded the opportunity.'
This parallels the successes of the early Oxford movement in Britain in parishes in poor and industrial areas which developed into some of the most staunchly Anglo-Catholic strongholds. Beautiful churches and beautiful liturgy were welcomed by the poor. It was all they had. There is a certain sickness of spirit which resists, forbids, or repudiates truly Catholic liturgy. At root, I think, it is because such liturgy simply takes worship and its object, the Lord, much more seriously than its detractors want to be bothered with, or are comfortable with... which speaks volumes. And, for some, it is undeniably 'too Catholic' for them. -
An adjunct question I would also inject into this scenario of decline, why are most prelates apparently hostile to inviting the FSSP into their dioceses?
First of all, they (bishops) should know that FSSP curricula focuses upon liturgy, and that there are increasing accounts of absolute turn-arounds in shuttered or failing urban parishes when FSSP is afforded the opportunity.
Wow, melo, you are finally getting your dander up and asking some good questions!There is a certain sickness of spirit which resists, forbids, or repudiates truly Catholic liturgy.
The sick spirit is lucifer himself.
"If you aspire to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for an ordeal."
Otherwise, just keep your job, collect your pay and be the best milktoast music person you can be.2 1 Son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in justice and in fear, and prepare thy soul for temptation. fili accedens servituti Dei sta in iustitia et timore et praepara animam tuam ad temptationem
2 2 Humble thy heart, and endure: incline thy ear, and receive the words of understanding: and make not haste in the time of clouds. deprime cor tuum et sustine declina aurem et excipe verba intellectus et ne festines in tempus obductionis
2 3 Wait on God with patience: join thyself to God, and endure, that thy life may be increased in the latter end. sustine sustentationes Dei coniungere Deo et sustine ut crescat in novissimo vita tua
2 4 Take all that shall be brought upon thee: and in thy sorrow endure, and in thy humiliation keep patience. omne quod tibi adplicitum fuerit accipe et in dolore sustine et in humilitate tua habe patientiam
2 5 For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation. quoniam in igne probatur aurum et argentum homines vero receptibiles in camino humiliationis
2 6 Believe God, and he will recover thee: and direct thy way, and trust in him. Keep his fear, and grow old therein. crede Deo et recuperabit te et dirige viam tuam et spera in illum serva timorem illius et in illo veteresce
2 7 Ye that fear the Lord, wait for his mercy: and go not aside from him lest ye fall. metuentes Deum sustinete misericordiam eius et non deflectatis ab illo ne cadatis
2 8 Ye that fear the Lord, believe him: and your reward shall not be made void. qui timetis Deum credite illi et non evacuabitur merces vestra
2 9 Ye that fear the Lord hope in him, and mercy shall come to you for your delight. qui timetis Deum sperate in illum et in oblectatione veniet vobis misericordia
2 10 Ye that fear the Lord, love him, and your hearts shall be enlightened. qui timetis Deum diligite illum et inluminabuntur corda vestra
2 11 My children behold the generations of men: and know ye that no one hath hoped in the Lord, and hath been confounded. respicite filii nationes hominum et scitote quis speravit in Dominum et confusus est
2 12 For who hath continued in his commandment, and hath been forsaken? or who hath called upon him, and he despised him? permansit in mandatis eius et derelictus est et quis invocavit illum et despexit illum
2 13 For God is compassionate and merciful, and will forgive sins in the day of tribulation: and he is a protector to all that seek him in truth. quoniam pius et misericors Deus et remittit in tempore tribulationis peccata omnibus exquirentibus se in veritate
2 14 Woe to them that are of a double heart and to wicked lips, and to the hands that do evil, and to the sinner that goeth on the earth two ways. vae duplici corde et labiis scelestis et manibus malefacientibus et peccatori terram ingredienti duabus viis
2 15 Woe to them that are fainthearted, who believe not God: and therefore they shall not be protected by him. vae dissolutis corde qui non credunt Deo ideo non protegentur ab eo
2 16 Woe to them that have lost patience, and that have forsaken the right ways, and have gone aside into crooked ways. vae his qui perdiderunt sustinentiam qui dereliquerunt vias rectas et deverterunt in vias pravas
2 17 And what will they do, when the Lord shall begin to examine? et quid facietis cum inspicere coeperit Deus
2 18 They that fear the Lord, will not be incredulous to his word: and they that love him, will keep his way. qui timent Dominum non erunt incredibiles verbo illius et qui diligunt illum conservabunt viam illius
2 19 They that fear the Lord, will seek after the things that are well pleasing to him: and they that love him, shall be filled with his law. qui timent Dominum inquirent quae beneplacita sunt illi et qui diligunt eum replebuntur lege ipsius
2 20 They that fear the Lord, will prepare their hearts, and in his sight will sanctify their souls, qui timent Dominum parabunt corda sua et in conspectu illius sanctificabunt animas suas
2 21 They that fear the Lord, keep his commandments, and will have patience even until his visitation, qui timent Dominum custodiunt mandata illius et patientiam habebunt usque ad inspectionem illius
2 22 Saying: If we do not penance, we shall fall into the hands of the Lord, and not into the hands of men. dicentes si paenitentiam non egerimus incidemus in Dei manus et non in manus hominum
2 23 For according to his greatness, so also is his mercy with him. secundum enim magnitudinem illius sic et misericordia ipsius cum ipso -
I am so sorry.
You, your musicians, your parishioners and your pastor are in my prayers.
(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)Thanked by 1Casavant Organist -
Salieri:
Keep your chin up, and take it all in stride. Don't take yourself too seriously, and laugh at yourself. We are with you all the way!
romanScourgeSalieri.pdf141K -
Gosh. I hope Henry's pastor never sermonizes on how sinful the congregation is. That will have them leaving in droves too, and taking their $$$$$ with them. Better just play nice and don't piss anyone off. Except the one guy who is trying to make things beautiful and reverent.
-
francis just won the internet.
-
Salieri, I am very sorry that this is happening to your community.
Has there been any noticeable change in attendance at the mass that might explain the change of direction? If the reason for the change is money, how far has the collection fallen? After five years, I would think that you as the musician would have noticed anything dramatic in the size of the worshipping community, and a good pastor should have shared his thoughts with you long ago. I am with you in spirit. As always, build great things anyway. What you do for Christ will last.Thanked by 1francis -
Is there a happier compromise that you can arrive at?
I've found that having a hymn at the entrance and communion is often quite sufficient for congregational hymns, having a motet at the offertory and a chanted communion antiphon (followed by the hymn) creates a situation where people are able to "actively participate" by singing and also by active listening to some of the other music.
As for the mass ordinary, I recommend singing all the acclamations and responses. No one seems to minding singing the same chant tone Our Father year in and year out. (In Australia we have the AECL Chant Tone English Our Father, which every Catholic has sung even before Vatican II.)
I find sticking with the ICEL Mysterium Fidei (3 options) works well and no-one seems to mind them.
Perhaps look at having a regular congregational setting of the Mass. I use Mass of St Francis by Dr. Paul Taylor, which is one of the 6 congregational settings of the mass recommended in Australia. You can then have Gregorian Ordinaries say first Sunday of the Month and/or major feasts.
The fact is that Music will always be something of a compromise between what different groups in the parish want or are willing to accept.Thanked by 1eft94530 -
If you do have serve up a 4/5-hymn sandwich, at least make it gourmet.Thanked by 1hymndescants.org
-
You have no idea how I wish there could be a compromise. No Kyrie, no Gloria, no psalm; Sanctus & Agnus xviii, no propers, just do four hymns: express commands.
It only adds insult to injury that my choir turns 100 on 1 June. All our plans for our big Centenary Mass in November (St. Cecilia's Day) are thus also scrapped. -
The die is cast.
His choice is to try and stick it out or to leave now to avoid the next move - which is for the antagonists to find other reasons to force him out.
It may take the form of "Father, he's saying this about you."
The first move was, "Father, the custodian is moving the grass diagonally while it was always mowed in horizontal lines before. This isn't right. It has to stop. People are upset and they are leaving for other parishes and taking their money with them."
The second move comes when they realize that Father listened to them but...he's still there mowing the grass.
It's not enough to imprison, they want the beheading, too.
Truly, Father cannot explain this and does not understand himself just what he has done or how this has happened.
The Sheep have attacked.
-
My prayers are with you, Salieri, and here's hoping this is just a temporary setback. Your program for Sunday is an amazingly artful combination of Polish, English and Latin and of numerous genres, ancient and new. It represents a great deal of knowledge, creativity, skill and sensitivity---the perfect reflection of the mind and heart of the Church and truly progressive in the best sense of the word.
Whatever you do, don't give up on the liturgical model you have perfected. Someday, somewhere. someone is going to appreciate it and you. -
Before we all lose our heads here ...
Salieri, have you always been using propers IN ADDITION to hymns, and now they don't want the propers at all?
Also - who authorized the Adoramus hymnal? Were you able to do it unilaterally, or with the pastor's approval, or with the liturgy committee's input?
Without saying that you have nothing to be upset about - I totally understand the feeling of your vision for the parish being undermined - none the less, IS the situation as bad as all that? If the four hymns you pick are from the Adoramus hymnal, that can't be all that bad.
Now, as far as "When Sheep Attack" scenarios - I'm still not clear on WHAT I'd call this. It's some variation of WSA, it seems ... but there's many variations. You've got to know with which one you're dealing.
An example might help. I've got a couple people who come around my place who, under the right conditions, could prove to form a WSA scenario. But the conditions are far from conducive for them to do so. First of all, the pastor who hired me signed on to my vision from day one - and that's been known to anyone who's been paying attention. So, therefore, when they try to attack me, they are also necessarily attacking the pastor (and even they would admit that; they don't like his liturgical sensibilities on the altar much either.) Well, obviously how much progress do you think they can make against me with the pastor when they are also attacking the pastor? They just shot themselves in the foot there. And if you say "Well they might go against HIM to the bishop," well you don't know our bishop or diocese. I'll just say that that idea would not play out well for them either.
Now we also have a liturgy committee. Some of you hate them, some of you don't see why we need them. Well, when we got the Worship IV hymnal, which even with it's faults, is still tilted towards organ based rep, the committee approved it. We've also run various ideas past them through the years, and they are usually positive about each one. Well guess what? When the "attack sheep" attack, they are also attacking the parishioner members of the liturgy committee, in addition to me and the pastor. Yep, they are winning friends and influencing people EVERYWHERE they go.
So here's my point: these "attack sheep" are pretty much reduced to gathering in a little circle of 2 or 3 people after mass and complaining bitterly to each other. And that's about the extent of their influence. Oh, I'm not saying that we never give in on anything to them, or that we've never once appeased them. We have, here and there. But they certainly have NOT overthrown the liturgical stability of the parish, or the music program, or anything of the sort.
So, you've got to figure out if you've got a full blown WSA case, or a minor one, where the pastor wants to keep the Adoramus hymnal, and use mostly decent music, but doesn't want propers chanted before each hymn, etc. And there's 100 shades of grey in between too.
In the mean time, try to build consensus. It works.Thanked by 1Gavin -
I should add - What about the Christoph Tietze propers? Those ARE hymns; you could just use them without using the word "Introit," or "Proper." Just say it's a newly composed hymn with a familiar tune.
-
Adam: no chanted Kyrie, Gloria, or psalm.
PGA: The Adoremus Hymnal was the Pastors' idea - it replaced The New St Basil Hymnal. We do not have a liturgy committee.
We never sang the propers before I got there, neither did we sing the Kyrie, Gloria or Psalm. Singing them was discussed, and it was decided - by the pastor! - that the "stuffed Mass" approach would be best: hymns are still there, and we're singing the texts of the Mass. Basically, what's happening is moving backward to what we were doing in the '90's.
The thing that bothers me most about all this is: the new people we've got at the parish in the past 5 or so years, mostly all young people with large families (avg. 6 kids), are only familiar with the form of Mass that we've been doing - I should hesitate to point out that all of these people go to the Sunday choir Mass, not the 4:00 Mass (which I consider a Low Mass, which has nothing chanted, except the mandatory Sanctus & Agnus XVIII and he Mode vi Alleluia, and has a average age of about 72).
Many of these same people have mentioned to me at coffee hours, church picnics, etc. - I try to be as visible/active as possible - how much they appreciate the chant, the Latin, etc., and that that is what attracted them to this parish in the first place; and I fear that they will leave (with their children!) because their 'High Mass' was taken away.
I am going to try and stick it out, but I have the feeling that something else will be called into question as well - My choice of organ rep.: Occasionally I play Victorian schlock, mainly to appease the people that like that, but recently some of the same "squeaky wheels" have said how much they like it when I play "normal music" like that. What's next to go? Bach? Buxtehude? Tournemire? Dupre? Franck? Brahms? Mendelssohn? -
Hang in there. Maybe those people will leave (the new ones that are "on your side") and the pastor will see that. Without creating trouble, maybe some of those people could discreetly make an appointment with the pastor after they have noticed that the "music of the Church" is gone. At least that will plant the seed in his mind.
I guess this is a pastor you've had for a while, rather than a new one breaking everything down? I live in fear of the day our rector leaves. It will probably mean big changes here, perhaps not for the better. -
The Adoremus Hymnal was the Pastors' idea - it replaced The New St Basil Hymnal.
Just an aside, but choosing between those two, for me, would be like Sophie's Choice.
I'll say a prayer to Saint Dunstan for you, all the same.Thanked by 1Gavin -
Well if the pastor chose Adoremus things can't be THAT awful, in almost any circumstance ...
I understand your frustration though. When those younger families complain, I would tell them plainly, "Listen, I'm not asking you to start a movement, and please don't try to turn this into warring factions. But do just mention to the pastor that you would like things to stay the same." Then go to the pastor, very politely, and non confrontationally, and say "Mary Jane did come up to me and mention that she DOESN'T like the new changes. I didn't agree or disagree with her, but I did suggest that she might mention it to you, this way both of us are hearing from everyone and we know where we stand with the people. This will help us have a better sense of where we need to be."
This does work, and he might reasonably conclude that there has to be some kind of compromise. Same story everywhere. There's a few people who hate our choir mass, but many more who come for it.
Incidentally, what is "Victorian schlock?" -
Like Caleb Simper? I use some of his pieces, but I (judiciously!) ignore most of his accidentals and they sound a lot less like "Victorian schlock."
-
Then go to the pastor, very politely, and non confrontationally, and say "Mary Jane did come up to me and mention that she DOESN'T like the new changes. I didn't agree or disagree with her, but I did suggest that she might mention it to you, this way both of us are hearing from everyone and we know where we stand with the people. This will help us have a better sense of where we need to be."
This turns you into doing a sheep attack on the pastor yourself.
The Only Way to do this is to take them to the pastor and meet with him with them.Every six minutes a handful of parish members (often no more than a half dozen) bully, intimidate, threaten and blackmail successful pastors into resigning their ministries. The wounds they inflict on these pastors and their families remain with them for the balance of their lives. Congregational leaders that stand with the pastors are often attacked and left wounded from the same trauma. This is a book of healing. It is written for senior pastors, music ministers, lay professionals and lay leaders that are suffering with the wounds of a sheep attack. The author examines the depth of the pain that the antagonists are able to inflict. He brings forth the damaging effects of Chronic Stress, Emotional Memories, Burnout and Post Traumatic Stress Injury. Based on the experiences of over 200 clergy of virtually every branch of Christianity and Jewish Rabbis he describes the methods they have utilized to heal and move forward with their lives. This is the third book in the series on "sheep attacks" by The Reverend Doctor Dennis Maynard. The others are: "When Sheep Attack" and "Preventing A Sheep Attack"Thanked by 1Liam -
This turns you into doing a sheep attack on the pastor yourself.
Not if you are very transparent. Of course, you would have to already have a relationship with him in which he TRUSTS that you are being transparent and believes what you say. The important thing to make it NOT an attack is to not tell the parishioner "I know! I didn't want it to change either! You make sure you go tell him!" Instead, you act neutral and disengaged - and be totally up front with the pastor. It's not an attack if you tell him that it's coming and he believes you when you say "I didn't try to stoke her fire, just told her to tell you so that you hear all sides." -
Bottom line here is that these kind of actions (preventing, re-attacking, subverting, etc.) are all forms of manipulation. NONE of it should occur for EITHER side. If you are being attacked, endure it and be charitable and pray. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Open not your mouth.
If the pastor isn't behind you 110%, or falls to pressure or whim, there is NOTHING you can do but pray and hope. Betrayal is the worst thing we experience as musicians in the Church, but guess what... you are in good company. (see attached)
ADD:
I also was reminded that Judas was playing this game of go between. 'But Jesus! We can make this better! I will talk to... and he will... and... and... and...) In the end you wind up with "Garden Garbage". A kiss you will forever regret.
crucifix.png567 x 732 - 266KThanked by 1Gavin -
Bottom line here is that these kind of actions (preventing, re-attacking, subverting, etc.) are all forms of manipulation. NONE of it should occur for EITHER side. If you are being attacked, endure it and be charitable and pray. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Open not your mouth.
I think that this is really overthinking it. And maybe overstating it.
I don't think that, in many cases, the intent of the people is to attack, subvert, etc. They are voicing an opinion of something that they don't like. And to some degree, they are inevitably consumers and yes, we are there to serve them.
It's not about "re-attacking." It's about saying "OK, we have a pastor and I'm the music director. The pastor and I have a certain vision, but if most of the people don't buy into it, it's not going to work. So how can we assess, first of all, where we are with the people, and what we can do to get more buy-in?" Then you have to see what is possible.
This particular case doesn't sound that nasty to me, and it doesn't sound like people trying to drive anyone out. The fact that they have the hymnal they have and mass amounts of people don't seem to be complaining about that is telling.
And what I suggested, about having someone who is now not happy go to the pastor, isn't about "re-attacking" or anything of the sort. It's about problem solving. It's about helping the pastor to see that we are all on the same side: You don't want people leaving the parish any more than he does, so maybe we just need to get all the facts laid out before us (i.e. are OTHER people now going to leave the parish if we give in to those first people?)Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick -
I don't think It's so much the Quality of the Music (after all, RVW is RVW whether it's Mass in G Minor or SINE NOMINE) as the (perceived) Quantity of Music. The words I keep hearing are:
Pastoral, Short Attention Span, Money (down), Meet people where they are, Takes too long, Pastoral.
In thinking about this last night, and this morning, (trying to pray on it, without it preying on me) it seems like he is in the position of allowing the good be the enemy of the better. That is, as far as hymnody is concerned, we are better than other places: no P&W or Sacro-pop (well, except the occasional '20's sacro-pop), and that's good enough. We shouldn't challenge people, it drives them away. We know Mass XVIII, that's good enough, it's more than St Whosiwhatsit does. We don't need a 55 minute Mass on Sunday, and the people don't want it. They travel an hour out of their way to go to St. Soandso's in Next Town Over, because Fr. Ted only has a 20 minute Sunday Mass. -
Well, while agreeing with you, I think he also has a point.
You said "That is, as far as hymnody is concerned, we are better than other places: no P&W or Sacro-pop." I mean, THAT is an accomplishment. "We know Mass XVIII, that's good enough, it's more than St Whosiwhatsit does." I agree with you that this might not be the gold standard, but depending on where you are, you still might be better off than many other places.
I mean, I'm not trying to make you feel more defeated, but what's the alternative? Go play somewhere else and use "Mass of Creation" for the ordinary, and "We Are Called" as the recessional?Thanked by 1Gavin -
To be honest, the part that has hurt me the most is not about what this does to what I have done, and my work. If I want to sing chant, all I have to do is go home, open up my Graduale or Antiphonale, and sing. It's the musicians under my direction who have dedicated their spare time to do this. My choir (of ten) is all amateur, and all volunteer, only three of us read standard notation fluently, only two of us quadratic notation. They have worked their hinderparts off to do this every week. What does this say to all of their hard work?
One thing that has bothered me for years (and I have mentioned it to the pastor) is that when any other sodality or society or group in the parish has their 'patron saints' Mass, he always mentions how wonderful they are, how hard they work, yada yada (because they donate $$$).
When our Mass comes round, not even a sentence thanking us for our presence EVERY SUNDAY, FIFTY-TWO WEEKS A YEAR AND HOLYDAYS OF OBLIGATION - even if it means some people have to take time off from work! The choir have noticed this, and mentioned it to me, and on their behalf I mentioned it to the pastor. His response: "We're not doing it for recognition, we're doing it for Jesus. If you're doing it for praise of yourself, then your're not doing it for the right reasons."Thanked by 1expeditus1 -
Some day they'll be eating their words. I've always ducked from the applause, which didn't used to happen- up until about seven years ago. One man of the cloth had the gall to tell me to stop making it all about me. Yet he is the one thanking people by name and goading the crowd to clap their hands. Well, some people are intimidated by superiority, some are humbled by it.
-
If they had that kind of relationship, the priest would have called him in to meet with those people.Of course, you would have to already have a relationship with him in which he TRUSTS that you are being transparent and believes what you say.
Pastors once had the choir and organist to attend to and the people who ran the sodality and other groups walked in fear of the pastor. When "you've got a friend" hit the airwaves maybe that hit home with a bunch of lonely men who decided to remain priests but to become one with the people instead of living a life and above them. -
His response: "We're not doing it for recognition, we're doing it for Jesus. If you're doing it for praise of yourself, then your're not doing it for the right reasons."
My response would be "And you are correct. This isn't about ME. I'm telling you what THEY said and how THEY feel - and THEY are parishioners who give money and time and talent. So you can choose to ignore how they feel, but I'm just letting you know of their feelings, because, again, the last thing we want is people leaving the parish." -
The adversary; clergy and faithful whose profanity confuses pastors to seek the almighty dollar.CB: Which "they" is "they"? The Clergy of the Choir? -
When did we get the idea that mass should be celebrated to a stop watch? I don't buy the point that a 55 minute mass is long. None of my masses go longer than an hour and we sing everything that we can. If the parish has more than one mass on Sundays (most do), why would the choir mass need to be shortened? The eucharistic celebration isn't a visit to a drive through. It is an encounter with Christ. As an aside, in my parish, collections historically rise when there is more singing.
Your pastor is clearly not a manager. His retort, "We're not doing it for recognition, we're doing it for Jesus. If you're doing it for praise of yourself, then you're not doing it for the right reasons" is foolish. Thanks and praise are not the same thing. In my parish, on the major holidays (Christmas, Palm Sunday, Easter Sunday, Pentecost Sunday, Trinity Sunday, Corpus Christi and Christ the King) the choir sings at every mass that is celebrated in English, so I have breakfast brought in for the singers after mass as a way of saying thank you to them. People will run through walls for you if they see that you appreciate them and share their commitment.
Out of curiosity, has your pastor ever sat in on one of your rehearsals? Sometimes people think that what we do comes more from magical talent than from sweat and perseverance. He might gain some respect for the selfless work singers do privately.
Welcome to the MusicaSacra Forum!
To participate in the discussions on Catholic church music, sign in or register as a forum member, The forum is a project of the Church Music Association of America.
Categories
- All Discussions21,507
- General Music Discussion7,775
- Job Openings1,365
- Management of Music Programs838
- Choral Matters523
- Church Documents and Rubrics513
- CMAA Notes293
- Events665
- For Newcomers: Read First24
- Sacred Polyphony531
- Hymnody840
- Gregorian Chant: General2,614
- ↳ Graduale Romanum and Liber Usualis357
- ↳ Graduale Simplex55
- ↳ Semiology58
- Vernacular Plainsong681
- Anglican Use and Anglican Chant67
- Organ, Other Instruments and Repertoire418
- New Composition/Works in Progress1,232
- Recordings223
- Music for Hispanic Ministry155
- Music Education: Children207
- Music Education: General217
- News Items242
- Positions Wanted58
- General Discussion: Catholicism729
- Amusements173
- General Discussion1,009
- Opinions115