• It's very confusing trying to figure out Vespers. The whole Comparison Gradual was a result of my trying to figure out the entire responsorial psalm business...GIRM, SIMPLEX, on and on....

    Could someone take us under a wing and come up with a simple chart showing what goes where and what the choices are?
  • I second this motion. This is the very same problem I've run into with trying to do first vespers for the 4th sunday in advent . . . there's lot of help to be had here for sure, but getting it all sorted it out is still overwhelming.
  • What complicates this are the really, really extensive Anglican recordings and music for the Vespers. The pattern it follows is so logical (and I suppose easier to understand because of it being 100% English and yet foreign being British that it seems 'special') and the Vespers has become a real vehicle for composers.
  • Noel: Are you inquiring about the Post Vatican II revised form using the four week psalter? or the older version?
    Either way - The office is intended to sanctify time and remains the immediate purpose for any gathering of the Church. If we gather , for any reason, we are first called to pray the office of that time of day. Those who have a calling to "pray always" will really be rewarded as the psalms unfold an elegant dialogue between the Father, Son, Holy Ghost and ourselves. It is the continuous prayer of the Church, the angles, and our God. The Office reveals an hour by hour purpose and energy to the liturgical year, - to the week, - and to the day. It will become as fundamental to your liturgical awareness as the ictus is to arsic and thetic energy in chant.
    Do you know the three psalms that are never used because the contain too much cursing?
  • Hi, Ralph, nice to run into you here as well!

    I suppose that I am trying to reconcile and understand the pre and post V2 versions...and how it might best be done today.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Perhaps we really need a bit of a Vespers/LotH mini-culture here!

    FMJ - I think you've hit the nail on the head about Vespers having become a vehicle for composers. Most churches I've seen that hold "Vespers" are doing something more in line with a musical evening of prayer - a beautiful and fulfilling experience, but not quite the formal Catholic Liturgy of the Hours. So if you and Darth are going to get something going, it's important to make a choice up front and stick with it for a period of, let's say, 2 years. ALL Vespers will be 1)a beautiful Evening Prayer without necessarily adhering to formality, or, 2) the contemporary Evening Prayer as found in books such as Christian Prayer, or 3) the older form of Vespers in the traditional style.

    We've chosen to recite/sing our mostly-English Evening Prayer/Vespers from option #2. The Schola intones a Latin prelude (in reality the Ad Vesperas or Ad Invitatorium for the day depending on how difficult the piece is). All sing a relatively traditional Catholic hymn. A leader recites the antiphons and people respond. The congregation speaks the Psalms side-to-side. A reader says the Reading. The schola sings the Magnificat (in Latin). All say the Our Father. The schola sings a Marian hymn (Regina Coeli, Salve Regina, etc.) in Latin.

    We started of as a lay apostolate but recently the priest has begun to join us, so we include Benediction now which entails the Tantum Ergo. And if he will give us permission to do so we might consider trying the Pater Noster one of these days. There are other components we include (Psalm-Prayers, etc.) from Christian Prayer which are self explanatory.

    So far the only books I've needed are Jubilate Deo, Christian Prayer and Liber Hymnarius.

    It's far from perfect but I consider it a work in progress. If we waited to perfect things before we started we'd never get off the ground. So go for it!
  • For the post Vatican II version: check out the Mundelein Psalter, Chicago: Hillenbrand Books, 2007. It uses the exact texts from the Liturgy of the Hours set to simple chant tones. It only offers Lauds, Vespers and Compline, but does so for all days of the year, with propers of seasons, saints, and commons. I have seen it work pretty well and it seems like all the work has been done for you. It sells for about $50

    My personal preference is to use the Latin because it is so much easier to chant.

    For the Ordinary Form version in Latin, it seems like one must buy so many books. An easier Office to pray in common according to the new form is Compline. The entire Sunday Office for Compline is in the Liber Cantualis and it is an inexpensive book - probably $12 or cheaper. The Liber Hymnarius is about $60 and it contains all the hymns, Invitatories, and the Te Deum; plus some responsories for the Office of Readings. One can add solemnity to the recited vernacular Office by spicing it up with the Latin hymns. The Office of Readings benefits most from this book: Invitatory, hymn, responsories and Te Deum can all be chanted in Latin. The rest can be recited in English.

    The Liber Usualis is so easy to use for the traditional version, especially for Sundays per annum. It is all there for you. All you have to do is find the proper Sunday for the Magnificat antiphon and the Collect. For the propers of Seasons, you have to turn the pages back and forth for the psalms, but it is still pretty easy to use.

    Again, I would recommend starting with Compline in common to learn the style of the traditional Office. It is easy, especially with the booklet: Ad Completorium from the Fraternity Publications Service. It is $4.50 and has everything in Latin and English side by side for every day of the year. Once getting this down, it is easier to take on Vespers.
  • Dear Priorstf - I am researching Vespers in parish churches for an academic paper/presentation. Can you tell me what parish is doing this Vespers of which you speak?

    If you could help me out, I have a discussion entitled Does Anyone out there have Solemn Vespers every Sunday? Your comment above was really helpful. Tell me more, please.
  • a1437053a1437053
    Posts: 198
    Frogman (and others),

    I recently discovered the Liturgy of the Hours and studied it extensively before I could figure it out. It took me weeks, months.

    Currently, (when I pray it), I follow the "Christian Prayer" or 4-volume "Liturgy of the Hours" from Catholic Book Publishing Co., which uses US-approved texts. Sometimes I use the digital version from Universalis (but they use the texts approved for the UK and other countries).

    I can write more extensively later; let me know if this is the kind of "mini-culture" or tutorial you are referring to.

    Oh, and as an aside, keep our parish in your prayers. We will start a LotH teen prayer group on November 7. We will start reciting, working out way to chanted tones (8G exclusive for now).

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "How I learned Vespers", using "Christian Prayer" or "Shorter Christian Prayer".

    Preparation: This was meant for monks to pray during the day. Check out the Norbertine schedule. I found it easier to learn weekdays, then move to Sundays and other days.

    1. Watched and prayed the Pope's Vespers service during his recent visit. I hope you can still see the video at: http://mfile.akamai.com/18596/asf/atlanticvid.download.akamai.com/18594/wm.atlanticvideo/cc_pope/evening_prayer.asx

    Is there any better example than our Holy Father?

    2. Watched it a second time, this time using the pdf file of the Vespers service. (Later I can find the link and post it.)

    3. Compared the pdf from his visit and the "Christian Prayer" book. (This is tricky, and I can explain how in an update.)

    4. Used Resources. Read the "General Instruction of the LotH" (p. 8). Also read the "Ordinary: Evening Prayer" (p. 694-698). Again and again. These pages are the most important.

    Also looked for web pages. (This took a lot of research.)

    5. Practiced.

    6. Learned Psalm Tone 8G. (This took a lot of research.)

    7. Tried to learn Magnificat 8G (I couldn't find many recordings. I have ABSOLUTELY NO BACKGROUND in singing, reading music of any kind. Eventually I got the basics.)

    Figuring out Sundays and other feasts, celebrations for saints, etc. is the second big step.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That, in a nutshell, was how I learned to pray Vespers and the LotH this summer. I feel as if I'm the only layperson in a 30 mile radius who prays this. It is truly sad that we've almost lost this prayer.

    Now, I try to pray Morning/Evening/Night, and occasionally get to the Office of Readings.

    =)
  • a1437053a1437053
    Posts: 198
    P.S. I didn't carefully read the thread. I see this was not what you meant.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    DE- St Francis of Assisi, Henderson NV. I noted your other post, but as we're doing neither Solemn (yet) nor 1st Vespers (yet!) I'm hoping for others to chime in over there.
  • To pray Vespers:

    Check your ordo if you aren’t sure of which liturgy to use; generally you’ll use the one for the day, unless it’s for (IIRC) a solemnity or a feast of the Lord, in which case there exists 1st Vespers the evening prior to the day and 2nd Vespers on the day of.

    So, ok, let’s say you’re doing 4th Sunday of Advent, on the day of, which means you’re doing 2nd Vespers.

    Go to the Ordinary, which describes the entire service and gives the non-varying texts.

    The varying texts (besides the psalms) are given in the Proper of Seasons, which, in my Paulist Press “Christian Prayer” book, precedes the Ordinary.

    For the psalms, consult the 4-week psalter; you’ll be on Sunday (2nd Vespers) of week 4. (Note: Sunday 2nd Vespers always features Psalm 110, “The Lord said to my master...” This continues a centuries-old tradition.)

    That’s really all there is to it; the rest is self-explanatory.
  • One notable exception to the general rule of using the day’s liturgy is that, when All Souls is on a Sunday, the LotH celebrates the SUNDAY IN ORDINARY TIME, not the office of the dead.

    That may be it....not sure.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Thanks for the posting Felipe - Excellent advice! Oddly enough there won't be 1st Vespers in either case because Saturday is Dec 20 and that will take precedence. So any Sunday Vespers is, as you point out, 2nd Vespers, in this case those specific to Dec 21 taking precedence. Here's the sequence of events with page numbers (cp) from the book Christian Prayer. I've included references to the USCCB New American Bible pages as well.

    Prelude (optional)
    Evening Prayer II (cp 931)
    Hymn suggestions (cp 114) (feel free to choose another)
    Antiphon 1 (cp 114)
    Psalm (110:1-5,7) (from USCCB Bible)
    Psalm-Prayer (cp 932)
    Antiphon 2 (cp 114)
    Psalm (112) (from USCCB Bible)
    Psalm-Prayer (cp 933)
    Antiphon 3 (cp 114)
    Canticle (Revelation 19:1-7) (from USCCB Bible)

    Reading (Philippians 4:4-7) (from USCCB Bible) [** This is a correction from the earlier posting of 1 Corinthians 4:5.**]
    Responsory (cp 130)
    Antiphon (cp 130)
    Canticle of Mary/Magnificat
    Intercessions (cp 130)
    Our Father
    Prayer (cp 130)
    Dismissal
    Marian Hymn (optional)

    You'll have to cut and paste things like the Psalms, Reading, etc.into place in your Libellus (booklet). For one-time usage there shouldn't be any copyright issues.

    Do have fun!
  • priorstf,

    There is 1st Vespers of the 4th Sunday of Advent in my edition of the LotH, both in the Proper of Seasons and in the antiphons in the psalter for 1st Vespers of Sunday IV.

    You are correct in that the Magnificat antiphons are specific to the calendar day, but 1st Vespers of the 4th Sunday of Advent takes precedence over ferial Vespers of the Saturday before. (Actually, the psalter doesn’t even contain Saturday vespers.)
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Thanks again Felipe! I stand corrected. The Prayers for the Fourth Sunday of Advent take precedence over the calendar-specific prayers. I've modified the Reading above to update that. I believe the rest of the sequence is still accurate.

    As to the absence of Saturday vespers, my understanding is that they are omitted from the psalter because they take place after the anticipatory Mass on Saturday, making it liturgically Sunday. For that reason, Saturday evening is considered Sunday EP 1 and Sunday evening is Sunday EP2. Do I have that correct?
  • This is ALL very helpful, don't stop!

    We did an Evening Prayer over the summer at our choir school. Our pastor is big on involving the Deacons, and we are too, so they assisted very nicely.

    When we shortly move into out new church every wednesday evening there will be Mass at 6:00, followed by Sung Vespers at 6:45, followed by Choir Rehearsal....
  • I attended my first Solemn Vespers (EF) recently. Does anyone know about the rubrics, or have a link to anything abou the rubrics? The cantors seemed to do a good deal of standing up, genuflecting and going to the priest and then back to their seats at the beginning of each psalm, and the priest intoned certain bits but not others, etc... I'm very curious!
  • Yes, the rubrics for Vespers can be complicated. They are all in the Fortescue-O'Connell Ceremonies of the Roman Rite, though. The cantors do stand and genuflect a lot at solemn Vespers. Here are my notes from the text with some modifications for our situation. Mostly I'm leaving out the pre-intoning since that would essentially be the blind leading the blind. Our organist will give the priest his pitches.
  • Here's the file
  • Hey, why can't I upload pdf files from Firefox? I had to switch to Explorer.
  • hmmm, we'll at least you isolated the source of the bug!
  • I get an error saying that the file application/download does not match .pdf
  • If you are using the four week psalter you always begin a new cycle at the first week of the given season and then continue : such as:the First Sunday of Advent, Lent , Easter, Ordinary time will be assigned "week one" from the psalter; and week one will repeat at the fith Sunday of a season, and the ninth, thirteenth etc. On Sundays, the Antiphon(s) for the Gospel canticle, intercessions and closing prayers comes from the proper, and note that this Antiphon matches the Gospel from the Mass of the Day ( on Sunday) in the following ways: Evening prayer 1 quotes the Gospel from cycle A, Morning Prayer quotes the Gospel from cycle C and Evening Prayer II quotes the Gospel from the cycle C of the Sunday Lectionary .
    1.The greeting begins the service followed by the response, GLory be, and Alleluia

    2.If the Prayer is your first for the day it should begin with an nInvitatory psalm. Psalm 100,67,24, or 95- for Sundays and weekdays the invitatory Antiphon is found in the Psalter.

    3.then the hymn , (I usually omit this)

    4. Antiphons/ psalms, Psalm prayer, Antiphon
    Antiphons/ psalms, Psalm prayer, Antiphon
    Antiphon/ canticle, Antiphon
    these antiphons are generally taken from the psalter unless the proper provides one
    5. Reading
    6. Responsory from the psalter
    7. Gospel Antiphon and Gospel Canticle( Magnificat for Evening Prayer) are to be presented with special reverence as
    is he Gospel at Mass. The entire assembly stands, incense is be used and the Canticle could be Proclaimed from the
    ambo.
    8. Intercessions (be careful of your source for these)
    9 The Lord's Prayer
    10. Closing Prayer and Dismissal.
    11. Postlude

    The Marian hymn is a necessary element of Night Prayer, but not necessary to Evening Prayer. The Office of Readings can be done at any time, after the previous nights evening prayer. In it are found psalms that acknowledge a very wide range of human emotions, they are very different from what we hear at Mass. This Office also contains the Te Deum which is reserved for Sunday. Tenebrae is supposed to be the anticipated Office of Readings for Holy Thursday celebrated on Wednesday.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Noel: http://www.anglicanbreviary.net/instructions.html This is for the Anglican Breviary, which is the old breviary but in English. So the procedure is 100% the same, just a different language when you recite it. And anyone who can tell me where to get a cheap copy of this book would have my gratitude!
  • priorstf,

    I think the 1st Vespers-on-Saturday-evening has more to do with the time of day than with Vespers’ hour of observation relative to the evening Mass, which (I think??) can be at any time.

    I believe I recall that the ordo I have defines the start of Christmas season as 1st Vespers or the Christmas Vigil Mass, whichever comes first.
  • Ralph,

    Bear in mind that the 2nd typical edition of the Liturgy of the Hours, which has yet to be translated officially to English, does indeed match the psalm/canticle antiphons to the Lectionary cycle.
  • Does anyone offer Vespers in the modern form in Latin? If so, why? Just reading all these instructions regarding the LotH makes me very happy that I stick with the Traditional Office.
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    A couple of reasons one might want to do Latin Vespers in the modern form:

    1. the vespers hymns from the Liber Hymnarius are superior to the ones in the Liber Usualis, both for the text (more ancient, not the Urban VIII neoclassical revisions) and the music (closer to the more ancient sources & just seems to flow better. Lucis creator is a case in point, at "optime": do-re-ti-la-sol in LU, do-re-do-ti-la-sol in LH)

    2. if everything else in the parish is ordinary form, the Magnificat antiphons really should match up with the morning's gospel.

    With the complexity of trying to arrange a modern Latin vespers and the paucity of resources, though, I understand completely the attraction of the traditional Vespers.
  • Michael, thank you! That's really useful.
  • G
    Posts: 1,391
    May I just thank you all?
    When I first tried to understand the LotH and do it with decent music, I was made to feel like an imbecile by various people online and IRL, because I didn't "get" it, got lost in the books and had trouble trying to coordinate the requirements/suggestions/hymns/fabricated psalm prayers/etc...
    Glad to know not everyone comprehends it instantaneously

    "One notable exception to the general rule of using the day’s liturgy is that, when All Souls is on a Sunday, the LotH celebrates the SUNDAY IN ORDINARY TIME, not the office of the dead."


    But I believe the General Instruction says that if the liturgy is done with the faithful, i.e., those not required to say it, the Office of the Dead is to be or may be used. (Can't remember wording)

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Robert,

    Yes, it would be wonderful to have the Liber hymnarius hymns replacing the LU ones. I don't really see any juridical reason why one could not do that, too.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    Concerning the LU hymns and their revised texts: the 1912 Antiphonale has the original texts in an appendix, for those that use them «de iure vel ex consuetudine aut indulto». There are differences to the Liber Hymnarius, but this would be better than the tampered LU versions.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Can anyone provide the actual source of the antiphons and psalm-prayers included in the Christian Prayer Liturgy of the Hours book? Is there a commission somewhere responsible for writing these or are they composed by the publishers of the book? Thanks.
  • priorstf,

    The antiphons are from the 1975 (?) English translation of the Liturgy of the Hours, 1st typical edition. They correspond to the Latin texts in the 1st typical edition.

    The psalm-prayers are, like the alternate opening collects in the current ICEL Sacramentary, original to ICEL.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Thank you Felipe. More books to buy!
  • I am not sure which Christian Prayer book you have; Catholic Book Publishing’s edition has complete Lauds and Vespers. Pauline’s also has Compline and Terce/Sext/None....everything but the Office of Readings, basically.

    Either book, though, is the official text of the Divine Office as found in the full 4-volume set.

    Note, too, that none of these offices is called by their traditional names in the current English translations. Personally, I hope this changes when/if they get around to retranslating the LotH (i.e. for the updated Latin LotH edition) since “Evening Prayer” sounds no different than “prayer in the evening”, whereas “Vespers” indicates a specific liturgical office. Presumably the traditional names were jettisoned to give the impression of a simpler learning curve.
  • Hi all,

    I have been following the discussion in this topic, along with the others regarding the chanting of Vespers with great interest.

    I have a few more things I'd like to clear, all to do with the LoTH.

    Regarding the Ordo Cantus, after some struggles I've managed to figure out how to navigate it, and find the relevant chant in Antiphonarium. So far so good for the seasons of Lent and Advent, it all seems to match up. However, for the Ordinary Time antiphons, they don't seem to match what I have in my copy of LoTH. Granted, I am using an English translation and translating back into Latin to see if they match; but surely the translators couldn't have done such a bad job? For example, the 1st antiphon for the 2nd Vespers of the 4th Sunday in the 4-Week Psalter (that was a mouthful!) in my English translation is 'In holy splendour I begot you before the dawn, Alleluia'. According to the Ordo it is supposed to be 'Dixit Dominus'. My Latin is far from good, but I know the Lord doesn't say anything in my English translation (it is however, the first line of the actual psalm). Am I reading the Ordo wrongly?

    Also, from what I understand, the Ordo recommends that the Revelation Alleluia canticle be done as a responsory, without an antiphon. But I am given an antiphon in my translation, does anyone know where to find the music for the antiphon? Which, by the way, leads me to another question - how does one chant this canticle? It doesn't really seem to fit a psalm tone.

    Sorry to ask so many questions! Your help is greatly appreciated.

    God bless,

    Gabriel
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    gabrielp:

    «However, for the Ordinary Time antiphons, they don't seem to match what I have in my copy of LoTH.» They do not. The Ordo Cantus Officii (OCO) does not prescribe the same antiphons as the Liturgia Horarum (LH). This has nothing to do with the English translation. The example you give of psalm 109, for which OCO prescribes antiphon «Dixit Dominus» in all four Sundays, while LH prescribes different anthiphons, is a striking one.

    «the Ordo recommends that the Revelation Alleluia canticle be done as a responsory, without an antiphon» Exactly. A third antiphon for Second Vespers of Sundays is given only during Lent, when (for obvious reasons) that canticle is replaced with another one by S. Peter.

    «But I am given an antiphon in my translation, does anyone know where to find the music for the antiphon?» If you really want to follow the LH, rather than the OCO, you have these LH antiphons for Advent, Christmas Season and Ordinary Time here:
    http://www.nocturnale.de/Nocturnale/Liturgia_Horarum.html
    I repeat: the antiphons in that site's files follow the LH, not the OCO. Some of them are neo-gregorian. (They were prepared by Holger Peter Sandhofe, who passed away in 2005 when he was 33; take a moment to pray for his soul. He never finished the files with antiphons for Lent and Easter Season.)

    «how does one chant this canticle? It doesn't really seem to fit a psalm tone.» It fits an ancient tone sung in Ascension Thursday with psalm 46. You can find that here:
    http://www.scholasaintmaur.net/Telechargement/
    You have to register to download (it's free). Choose «Partitions» and then «Cantique de l'apocalypse - alleluia ton solennel» (Revelation canticle - Alleluia, solemn tone).
  • Cantor
    Posts: 84
    dvalerio,

    That looks like a useful site....but their download thingie doesn’t let me log in, for some reason.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    If you mean www.scholasaintmaur.net, you have to fill in some fields in their site, apply for registration, and wait for an e-mail with a link to activate your account. After activation, then you will be able to download files and to register to receive by e-mail the Divine Office (bilingual Latin + French; the second column being only useful if your French is better than your Latin... and they send the several hours per UCT+1: a little bit early in the USA).
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    By the way, in case anyone cares: how can you know that the tone for the Revelation canticle downloadable from www.scholasaintmaur.net is an ancient psalm-tone for psalm 46 used on Ascension? Answer: check page 214 of «Gregorian Chant»,a book by the 20th century musicologist Willi Apel, and which you can download in PDF format at
    http://www.archive.org/details/gregorianchanc006474mbp
    and compare it with the partition provided by Schola Saint Maur.
  • Cantor
    Posts: 84
    dvalerio,

    I did register, and I did receive the email. It keeps telling me my access is denied, “Veuillez contacter un administrateur” and all.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    cantor: I regret that I am not an administrator of www.scholasaintmaur.net (I live in the wrong country), so I am afraid I cannot help you. I never had any problems with their site... Perhaps it has something to do with your browser's settings concerning cookies, or something???... Well, you can always do what they say and send an e-mail to their webmaster. (If you just want the Revelation canticle file, drop me an e-mail and I'll send it to you.)
  • Hi dvalerio,

    Thank you very much for your helpful input. I managed to download the Alleluia canticle, it's great! And I did check it in the Apel as you suggested, and you're right!

    Now, the reason I am asking all this is that I'm considering taking on a project to arrange/type-set the gregorian antiphons in order in a book form (so you don't have to flip through several books to find each antiphon), and,if possible, adapting them to the English. I intend to do this for a school thesis-like assignment (I'm in final year of music college, and we're allowed a free-interest final project for credits), but which I will definitely make available - should it go through.

    I believe, based on what I've seen discussed, this ought to be exceptionally helpful for young scholas who want to chant the Office. Am I believing correct? How useful do you all think such a project will be? How practical? I really want to do something that can be of practical benefit.

    Thanks for your input and comments!

    God bless,
    Gabriel
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    That seems a huge project. I think a compilation like that would be most useful. I understand from what you say that it would concern Vespers only (not the other hours). You know I have prepared one such compilation for Compline (see the webpage below), but Vespers (even Vespers of Sundays and Sollemnities only) is just too much for me.

    Actually, there is a recent book (which I never saw) with everything needed for the whole Office, save the Office of Readings. It's bilingual, Latin+French. You may have read about that in this Forum, at two discussions:
    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=533
    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1012

    This said, I am aware of no free resource, much less with English adaptations. (If someone knows of one such thing, please tell me about it.) So I think the compilation you are planning would be terrific. I have no idea how «useful» that would be since I have no idea how many scholas would actually end up using it to sing Vespers. A practical format for one such compilation is, I think, not difficult to conceive. I just believe it is a (very) hard job, especially since some antiphons are hard to come by (but then I guess you may have access to all sources listed in Ordo Cantus Officii).

    Good luck!
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Does anyone have actual sample of Vespers in honor of the BVM? Our beginning schola wants to do it, so we can pray together as a schola. And it's still confusing for me. I need some sample to start with. Looking at LU is more confusing. I heard the Vespers for BVM can be done any time of the year. I would like to see it either with Latin in modren form or EF.(EF might be too hard though, I assume) But Latin with translation would be a great help. (or at least resourses.) I'd truly appreciate it.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,128
    Robert Taft, the venerated liturgist at San Anselmo and Notre Dame and the author of the best resource (The liturgy of the Hours in East and West) on this question advised us poor students who wanted to start Vespers for parishes to do Cathedral Vespers. Cathedral Vespers uses the same format as the Novus Ordo Vespers, but the psalms stay constant for a period of time . When we did Vespers in Nashville, we did them every Sunday and used a group of psalms for a month at a time. Ps. 141 was always the first, but the others changed monthly. The people were taught the tones and sang the psalms to the tones. In this way, people learned the order and the psalms. Eventually, we got to doing the proper psalms after about a year and half of every Sunday. Taft argued (and rightly so) that the Office was the most under-utilized liturgy in the West and often advised us poor layfolk to be doing it. His argument was simple: we needed the sanctification of time and the Office did it.

    Thank you blessed Robert Taft, curmudgeon and scholar.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,336
    You can try "Universal Music for Evening Prayer"
    It's published by CanticaNova, and quite a good resource.
    There is one for morning prayer as well.
  • miacoyne. Email me at moconnor09 AT comcast.net. I can send you our program for Immaculate Conception. You would only need to change the antiphons (get them from the LU) and the priest's prayers (see www.breviary.net). The Traditional Latin Vespers is so much easier to put together than the modern LOH. I know that folks here have been trying to offer help, but I'm still convinced that the Bugnini liturgy was never intended to be sung, but rather read by priests on the go. I don't have any use for it.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 989
    I agree with Michael O'Connor on ease of "assembly." I use an abbreviated form of the traditional Vespers (fewer psalms with the antiphons in Latin and the psalms in English) and using the intercessions for the BVM from the contemporary LOH. You can also email me for one of my programs. If you stick to Marian vespers, it's really quite painless, with much of the chant and text remaining the same or closely related.