Lætáre Sunday - what did you see/hear?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    I'm re-thinking the "awkwardness" of the initial Jerusalem in the Clark/ Pluth version, and hearing its echo of the chant's own initial rise. Does this make sense?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I prefer Jerusalem first.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I prefer Jerusalem first.
    So do I ... but what do I know?
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    MJO, I was referring to the way Hopkins translates/matches melody as grating. I love his translation, just doesn't sing well to me.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The Hopkins is a great example (in my opinion) of how something that works as wonderful poetry doesn't always work as wonderful hymnody.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    The Hopkins is a great example of how hymn translation is almost always terrible. His poems are fire. His translation is earth.

    Euphonically, I like Jerusalem first. As a rendering of the introit of the day, I like rejoice first and I like Jerusalem ending on a high bistropha.
  • Douglas_Spangler
    Posts: 12
    Here is what I came up with this morning after taking a closer look at the entrance antiphon and its verse from the 2012 Gregorian Missal:

    Rejoice, Jerusalem, and all who love her.
    Be joyful, all who were in mourning;
    exult and be satisfied at her consoling breast.

    V. I rejoiced when it was said unto me: "Let us go to the house of the Lord."



    Jerusalem, rejoice!
    The hungry and oppressed,
    Like babes, are satisfied
    At her consoling breast.

    Lift up your heart, lift up your voice! Rejoice, again, I say, rejoice!

    How I rejoiced to hear
    Them saying unto me:
    "Come now before the Lord;
    Exult! and joyful be."

    Lift up your heart, lift up your voice! Rejoice, again, I say, rejoice!

    All glory be to God,
    The Father and the Son
    Who with the Spirit reign
    For ever, Three-in-One.

    Lift up your heart, lift up your voice! Rejoice, again, I say, rejoice!

    Proposed Text: Douglas Spangler, alt., including the refrain by Charles Wesley, 1707-1788.
    © 2014 Douglas R. Spangler
    Tune: DARWALL'S 148TH 66 66 88; John Darwall, 1731-1789


    In the 2nd verse, do you think it is too archaic to say "joyful be"?
    If so, I thought about trying this: "Exult! sing joyfully."
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    one opinion: I like "joyful be". I don't like "and" much.

    "Exult! Come joyful be!" might work, two imperatives.
    Thanked by 1Douglas_Spangler
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    For one perspective on how poetry (as opposed to lyrics - and many hymn texts might be considered lyrics more than poem as such) can be poorly served by being set to music:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=NSSdczSC13gC&pg=PR17&lpg=PR17&dq="lyrics,+even+poetic+ones,+are+not+poems"&source=bl&ots=EwpkjPRsX2&sig=Jlh5BA-Cs33nuutTrB9AD92Nouw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pIk9U57pLJHgsAT6oYGwBw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q="lyrics, even poetic ones, are not poems"&f=false
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    I like it--really, Douglas, I think you are gifted--but I wonder if there might be a possible way to arrange things so that they say what the Psalm says, about going to the house of the Lord.

    The only way that springs to mind at the moment rhymes "come" and "home," which looks fine on paper, haha, but doesn't sound quite right. Hmm.

    Thanked by 1Douglas_Spangler
  • Douglas_Spangler
    Posts: 12
    How about this?

    Jerusalem, rejoice!
    The hungry and oppressed,
    Like babes, are satisfied
    At her consoling breast.

    Lift up your heart, lift up your voice! Rejoice, again, I say, rejoice!

    How I rejoiced to hear
    The loud and joyful cry
    To go unto the house
    Of God the Lord Most High!

    Lift up your heart, lift up your voice! Rejoice, again, I say, rejoice!

    All glory be to God,
    The Father and the Son
    Who with the Spirit reign
    For ever, Three-in-One.

    Lift up your heart, lift up your voice! Rejoice, again, I say, rejoice!

    Proposed Text: Douglas Spangler, alt., including the refrain by Charles Wesley, 1707-1788.
    © 2014 Douglas R. Spangler
    Tune: DARWALL'S 148TH 66 66 88; John Darwall, 1731-1789
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I really like it a lot. In fact it's perfect exactly how it is.

    Except - and this is just a suggestion - could you use a different meter?

    And have it be based on some other text?

    And write it in a different language?

    And actually just draw me a picture of a kitten instead.
    Thanked by 4Douglas_Spangler Kathy barreltone Andrew Motyka
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Haha.

    Yes! Douglas, that is wonderful!!!
    Thanked by 1Douglas_Spangler
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    I do have one suggestion. What about,

    "Let us go to the house
    Of God the Lord most high!"
    Thanked by 1Douglas_Spangler
  • Douglas_Spangler
    Posts: 12
    And actually just draw me a picture of a kitten instead.

    Adam, in the context of this antiphon, don't you think I should draw three pictures of the kitten? One with it nursing from its mother; a second with it jumping up and down, exulting before the Lord; and a third with it praying the Glory Be?
    I think that would be more universal and CATholic, don't you? ;-)
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Douglas_Spangler
    Posts: 12
    Except - and this is just a suggestion - could you use a different meter?

    And have it be based on some other text?


    In all earnestness--

    I would welcome people's suggestions of a hymn tune to use and an antiphon to paraphrase, but my instinct up to this point has been to set the verbatim Roman Missal antiphon texts to music and not to paraphrase them to a hymn tune. I have been wondering whether I should spend some of my time writing antiphon paraphrases. I think the hymn tune introit model may help a large segment of the U.S. Catholic Church move toward the ideal of singing the antiphons, but I am also aware that for some parishes, hymn paraphrases would be considered a step backwards.

    I can write hymn paraphrases, but should I?
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    It's very nice. If you continue to sketch your kittens and so on, consider getting "UP" in there somewhere: we go up to the house of the Lord. Not only is the Temple in Jerusalem up high, but the exaltation of accomplishing the climb is part of the psalm, for me.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Douglas_Spangler
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I'm adding this to my personal list of "most insightful things mrcopper has said on the musicasacra forums"
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I can write hymn paraphrases, but should I?


    I know it's kinda Protestant and all, but I think there is a need for more Psalm-based metrical hymnody.
    Thanked by 2Douglas_Spangler bkenney27
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Protestants didn't invent paraphrases.
    They are as old as the hills.
    We should stop worrying about whether this or that is Protestant or Catholic
    and be concerned only that it is without theological blemish. Even Martin Luther wrote an admirable treatise on the Magnificat. Thankfully, we don't live in the sixteenth century and should not be bound by the hatreds and scruples of that time.

    Our anthems, and the very propers themselves, are full of paraphrases. Wisely, we don't allow them in place of lectionary readings, of which the psalm is one, but they are fully acceptable at other times during the liturgy.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood Douglas_Spangler Claire H CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Well, since I suggested it, I clearly don't have a problem with it.

    Metrical hymn paraphrases of Psalms in particular seems to be something of a Protestant phenomenon, though I'd be happy to b proven wrong on that point.

    Either way - I do think they could find a good place in Catholic life.

    And here's my reasoning for why they are needed:

    The Proper chants (which, IMHO, set a standard for what type of music/text should be sung) are Psalms or other scripture, not in-depth theological treatises set to rhyming poetry. They meditate, haiku-like, on one or two thoughts, rather than explain the entirety of the faith and the whole course of Christ's life from Annunication to Ascension.

    It SEEMS TO ME that (beautiful as many of them are), these poetic treatises are somewhat foreign to the Mass in their essence, and I further think that this is why some of the soft-pop folk settings of (poorly) paraphrased psalms got so popular in the 70s: as bad as they were, they seemed to fit somehow.

    Now, many of the hymns I call "poetic theological treatises" are of course wonderful, and I would be hard pressed to stop using them in liturgy. And, of course, the chanted Propers are the blah blah first best option.

    But - in places where metrical hymn-singing continues unabated - a wider variety of metrical hymnody based on Psalms, and without the archaisms of the established Ye Olde Metricale Psalteres - would be very very helpful. (I know I would use them.)
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    I think there is a need for more Psalm-based metrical hymnody.

    So, please, everyone secure a copy of Psalms for All Seasons: A Complete Psalter for Worship, published in 2012 by the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship. It must contain more than 750 musical settings. All 150 psalms and the three most used NT canticles are represented. All psalms have at least one metrical setting. Most psalms have at least 4 or 5 settings in all. Some have even more. (Psalm 23 has 11 settings.) In a variety of styles: responsorial, metrical, chant, world music, Gospel. A rich variety of tunes: psalter tunes, later hymn tunes, contemporary compositions. Settings from a wealth of publishers. Truly an awesome accomplishment just to pull together all this material.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    The use of Psalms in hymnody is as old as the hills.

    I wonder, though, how old Psalm metrical paraphrases are. Much before Calvin?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    As big tent a guy that I be, and yes, I could wear a tent (bada boom), this thread again represents a specific conundrum that CMAA and other like minded individuals and organizations likely did not conceive could occur so immediately.
    Ergo, new thread, once again upon propers: Propers and their media.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Maybe CMAA should republish Archbishop Parker's Psalter?
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    I wonder, though, how old Psalm metrical paraphrases are. Much before Calvin?


    Not much at all. The Genevan Psalter was The Big One, and guess what? Even then, there were discussions about how most of it was either terrible poetry to fit the music, or distorted the original psalm text to make it more artistic. Not much has changed in the last five centuries.
    Thanked by 2Kathy CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Catholic hymnody has from the beginning been a reflection on the mysteries, homiletic in character, interweaving various scriptures together in order to make sense of the whole.

    It's not "piecey"--to borrow an expression from cosmetology.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Catholic hymnody has from the beginning been a reflection on the mysteries, homiletic in character, interweaving various scriptures together in order to make sense of the whole.


    Right.

    And - this is very much a germinal hypothesis in my mind - it seems to me that this is related to them being a part of the Office, not the Mass.

    My idea here (not well thought, possibly completely wrong) is something like:
    -The Office is educational.
    -The Mass is experiential.

    For example, Communion chants usually don't mention the Eucharist at all, and when they do it is in simple, scriptural terms. But there are Benediction and Adoration hymns that expound in great detail on a theology of Eucharist and True Presence.

    That is, basically, the beginning of my thought related to my above statements that scripture based songs and hymns MIGHT (might might might) be more "proper" (ha ha) to the Mass than the more in-depth theology of Office (and Protestant) hymnody.

    YMMIHAVENOIDEAWHATIMTALKINGABOUT
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    I'm not altogether sure, Adam, that one could say with surety that both were not present in each, or, to put it another way, that the one was not found in the other, although, perhaps, to a lesser degree in the one and a greater degree in the other, while, certainly, each has a different quality or expression in each (which is to say, both the one and the other); and, of course, each will, verily, have a somewhat different intensity in each. Too, certainly, one could safely posit that if each is in each, then both are to be observed in the other - and, the other in both. BYMWD
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I'm not altogether sure, Adam....

    ME NEITHER

    It's just an idea at this point.

    I'd be curious if other people think so too.
    (Maybe in a new thread Is should start just for this purpose...)
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    This sums up my experience:

    http://benedictgal-lexorandilexcredendi.blogspot.com/2014/03/liturgical-blindness.html

    In my dad's parish, we used the SEP (Introit and Communion Antiphon). For the offertory, we used "I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say" and then for Communion, we went with "Attende Domine". For the recessional, we chose "There's a Wideness in God's Mercy."

  • Mark HuseyMark Husey
    Posts: 192
    Rose vestments: check. Chanted Introitus and Communio (which were out of tune and not suitable for posting). Had about 1/2 of my women and children but nearly all of my men, which was great for singing Psalm 23 from Bernstein's "Chichester Psalms."
    Ordinary was an adaptation of Fauré's Opus 48 (Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus Dei). Hymns "Christians, lift up your hearts" (Salve festa dies, odd verses only), "I want to walk as a child of the light" (Houston), "He healed the darkness of my mind" (Arlington) and Amazing Grace (descant by John Bertalot). Leaflet attached, video playlist link below.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVbDFX8RgS0&list=PL7gDJO5zDWIR6L8r0cgArMmHPAvp4TTTh
    Lent 4 A 2014 CHORAL Scrutinies PERIOD.pdf
    965K
  • Douglas_Spangler
    Posts: 12
    Does anyone have suggestions or recommendations regarding the use of contractions in hymn texts?

    In response to the comments by Kathy and Mr. Copper earlier in this thread, I have tried to work in "Let us" and "up" into the second verse of the proposed hymn text. I am considering using the word, "Let's" in the second verse. This sounds more palatable to my ears (and less like a leafy vegetable) than the phrase, "Let us."

    Here is the proposed text for the second verse. Any thoughts?

    How I rejoiced to hear
    The people’s joyful cry:
    “Let’s go up to the house
    Of God the Lord Most High!”

    Lift up your heart, lift up your voice! Rejoice, again, I say, rejoice!

    Proposed Text: Douglas Spangler, alt., including the refrain by Charles Wesley, 1707-1788. © 2014 Douglas R. Spangler
    Tune: DARWALL'S 148TH 66 66 88; John Darwall, 1731-1789

  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    One way to rid yourself of those apostrophes and sibilant Ss, and I don't think it changes your verse grammatically:
    ...
    The people (noun) joyful (adv .. or adj? if you require an -ly on your adv) cry (verb):
    Go! Go up to the house
    Of God the Lord Most High!

    ssssses can be irritating in sung wordsss.
    Thanked by 1Douglas_Spangler
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    I would avoid nearly all such contractions as not being of sufficient literary register.
    Some might say 'let's' in informal everyday speech, or sing it in certain genre's of spiritual songs, but not, I think, in a serious hymn, which should represent impeccable English.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood CHGiffen Douglas_Spangler
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    On Laetare Sunday at one parish where I played the organ:

    Entrance: All People that on Earth do Dwell.
    Offertory: Soul of My Saviour
    Communion: See Us Lord About Thine Altar
    Thanksgiving: Glory be to Jesus
    Recessional: Holy God, We Praise Thy Name

    For the last I tampered with the order of the verses, easy enough to do on the data projectors:

    Holy God...
    Spare thy people...
    Holy Father...

    The middle verse being a much quieter registration.

    The congregation has been very responsive to selections of more traditional hymns.
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    Douglas, I'm thinking of using this for this weekend . . . do you have a FINAL version, by chance?
    Thanked by 1Douglas_Spangler
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Douglas actually emailed me out of the blue the other day and said he does not have a final version. This is okay with me since we're doing the actual Introit at all Masses this weekend, but I'll drop him an email with your question.
    Thanked by 2Heath Douglas_Spangler
  • Douglas_Spangler
    Posts: 12
    Heath,

    It is my understanding that a new hymn text like this would need to be approved by a local bishop or the USCCB before being used in the liturgy. I have not yet submitted this text for review. Can anyone (perhaps Fr. Krisman) comment on this procedure/requirement?

    If there is some provision for "trial use" in a parish or two, I will be happy to email it directly to you in time for use this weekend.
  • lmassery
    Posts: 422
    I learned much from this thread
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