A learned musician should not be taking orders (musically speaking) from someone who has no training in the field of music. It is as simple as that. Would we let someone with no Air Traffic Control experience direct an Airbus A380 and its passengers to the ground safely? Of course not, it is ridiculous. We should not have tolerate such shoddy standards because we are Christians. The lady must get her backside down the road apiece.

Best wishes,
Padster

Dear Musicteacher56, you are a dear, sweet, forgiving and saintly person. Unfortunately, I am not. Wish I were, but can't pull it off. I can put up with so much, then the explosion occurs and that's the end.

Not every disagreement is a matter of obligation in conscience -- at least if one's conscience is formed correctly.

Our talent came from God and the ability and resources to nurture that talent through our music education also comes from Him. And, yes, it is through disagreement and discussion that we learn from each other. If the bottom line is to produce the best we can and do it with proper conscience, then we will succeed on our mission. But proper conscience also assumes patience and tolerance

Everyone! STOP refering to our sacred music making as a 'gig', whatever that is! Playing at a night club, a pub, a public gathering, etc., may be one of these things, but providing music for holy mass is fulfilling a sacred vocation with God-given talent... it is NOT a 'gig'. The very word sounds crass, cheap, thoughtless, careless, and degenerate... and irreverent and disrespectful...

Jackson, a "gig" usually pays well. Sacred music making doesn't always.

Padster,

I couldn't agree with you more. No symphony board would hire a non or exceptionally poor conductor for their orchestra....especially if the former conductor had already raised the orchestra's level of performance and repertorie. Why would they want to reverse direction? The same applies to ballet companies, hiring music faculty at a univ. or conservatory of music. The attitude is to continue to raise standards to attract new talented musicians of a symphony, dancers for a ballet co., and voice/piano/organ/brass/string faculty in an academic setting.

Regrettably, the Catholic church in many respects, (there are exceptions) are content with feel-good music, and dumbing liturgical music down to the lowest common denominator. I spent over 14 yrs. as organist/music dir. in the Catholic church fighting the "lowest common denomiator" issue. I'm happy to be away from it now. I'm content singing in an Episcopal church choir who's repertorie covers Gregorian Chant - 20th C. music of first rate composers.

I certainly didn't mean any disrespect in using the "g" word. Sorry if it offended any one. I think my comments certainly show my true feelings.

See, this is why we can never have a decent discussion about these matters because someone always brings Christ into it to bolster their position. A bit like the proverbial political football.

Best wishes,
Padster

Next he's going to start singing that song about lighting one little candle...LOL

Padster, taking you at your word as your statement wasn't in purple prose, may I remind you I don't nor have I had a position to bolster in this arena. You can further a "decent" conversation as much as you'd like. I just don't agee with pomposity well. My bad I suppose.

it's a joke color or sarcasm font.

I couldn't agree with you more. No symphony board would hire a non or exceptionally poor conductor for their orchestra....especially if the former conductor had already raised the orchestra's level of performance and repertorie.

Happens all the time. Symphony boards are the lay people in your church on the parish council - I've worked in that realm and it ain't pretty. Money, and only money, not musicianship, talks.

The font color=purple code isn't found in the perhaps the most logical place to look first, but once you notice a box at the upper right that is labeled "search" the rest is really not that hard.

this is a test.

On another thread there is a discussion as to the omission of the Kyrie on Ash Wednesday. In my opinion, this is the time to graciously consult the new music director and ask her what to do. A "go to" person can sometimes be a good thing... ;)

Chonak,

I didn't mean to suggest that every disagreement was a matter of conscience. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Rather, peace at the expense of what the Church tells us we should do is rarely a real peace, and can not be chosen as a regular course of action: disobedience to the directives of the Church can not be virtuous.

Cheers,

Chris

Sometimes one must just let God work his will, and trust that it will all work out. To put it into some perspective: A “parish hiring a non-musician to run music” can be very distressing, but spending a week in the hospital with a loved one makes it less important ..if it happens to be you. I have lately come to a new appreciation for volunteer Eucharistic ministers who visit the sick. They may not be musically inclined, but their work can bring peace to the soul.

There's a huge difference in skill sets, training, and talent between trained musicians and EMs. That is not to take anything away from EMs, but there is no comparison between those jobs.

I'm also curious on whether the Pastor knew HOW the message would be delivered.

It's not hard to imagine a Pastor saying "OK, so you go to this meeting and just make it clear that your in charge, don't let them walk over you. Tell them that we're going to go in this direction. I'll send the deacon to be there for support."

And maybe the Pastor thought that the new musician would assert herself and say "Well, the Pastor has chosen me to lead this in a new direction."

He might have never dreamed that what would come out of the new musician's mouth would be "I'm in charge now. If you don't like the way I do things, quit."

A Dilbert cartoon this weekend caught my eye.

Supervisor: Do you have any great ideas?
Worker: How would I know?
Supervisor: You could tell me your ideas and I'll judge them.
Worker: That would be like asking a chipmunk to judge algebra.
Supervisor: Are you comparing me to algebra?
Worker: Sure, let's go with that.

But since the different skill set require by different ministers was brought into the conversation, may I also say that a greater insistence on training and expertise for Extraodinary ministers would not go amiss in many places.
I was shocked and saddened last week to see an EMHC wipe out a ciborium with a paper-towel over the waste basket, because she had been told, "Make sure there are no crumbs left in there."
(I should note, so as not to add to my reputation as a... well, as a whatever, that I must have delivered what I had to say charitably, as she was pleased and happy to be admonished.)
Her job is inarguably more important, and a misstep is inarguably more an affront to the Lord than one of us programming "Here I Am, Lord," or singing an "Alleluia" in Lent.
(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

Holy Moly! This turned into a very good discussion. Here are some answers and more insight to what's going on.

New DoM is 76 years old. Pastor hired her for a 1 year term to start. She has been DoM in several area parishes and has already shaped up the choir (according to my sources), and has recruited 5 more choir members. It is greatly needed since many of them have been in the choir for more than 30 years. You can imagine what age has done to some of their voices....think "vibrato in search of a pitch" and "vibratos that you could drive a truck through". So far so good.

I've known this lady for close to 15 years when she was DoM at another parish that purchased a new organ from me in 2006. (I'm no longer in the "business"). She has always been and is, very honest and fair in her dealings. She also has a knack for dealing with the clergy by getting them to cough up much needed funds for a music program and new instruments. Another good thing with possibilities. (While we have a unit pipe organ, it's small and not versatile at all. The builders' specialty is building symphonic organs. While large ones, with their myriad of color stops are vey useful in RC liturgies, this one is only 19 ranks, scaled and voiced very big. It was never completed as originally spec'd out). Oh....and the parish paid $200,000 for this in 1985!!

Current Pastor has been here for 13 years, one year longer than allowed. I believe that he just doesn't want to deal with anything at this point since he'll be leaving in June. Once we get a new administrator things may change for the better. Please, Lord let this be the case!

So, while I absolutely loathe some of the music she has selected, I have to remember that I'm just hired help. Her selections include everything from the "gospel-swing" mass setting to traditional metrical hymns. Her thinking is that we need to provide a little something for everyone. It reminds me of the Protestants "blended" worship that has gone out of style a while ago. It's neither fish nor foul.

The irritating thing is that I have put my heart and soul into improving the music for the mass I play for and the people like it very much. I also hired a tenor as my cantor, who has a M.M. and is on the same page as I am regarding the music and direction that I was taking.

Bottom line is that I'll simply do as I'm told to the best of my abilities. Frankly, I'm just no good at the Country, Pop, Swing, Reggae, or other styles along this line. My training, from age 5, through a major conservatory has always been classical. Maybe it's time for this old dog to learn some new tricks! In any event, I'll just grit my teeth and bear it. (for now)!

Thanks, Padster. I've seen and heard about many other parishes with a DoM or coordinator with no musical training. Maybe it's normal for our Archdiocese. Perhaps, she's sung with a decent director and pulled a few pointers from that. She does have a piano in her living room, suggesting that she plays. I dunno.

I've already talked about the Propers and what's going on in some RC parishes i.e. improving liturgy and music and the success it's having. I don't believe that she or the deacon supervisor/liturgy director or our pastor have a clue. I hope that I can at least educate them. Whether it does any good is anyone's guess.

On a purely selfish note, I can really use her to push for updating the organ!

I hope I can last until next year.

Taking a very deep breath and perhaps imbibing in some liquid refreshment,

Steve

Perhaps give her some video examples of the propers being sung within the context of the Mass so she can see what you're talking about.

OK, Paix...here's the deal. She told all of us at last weeks meeting about the lack of training. Although I've known her for some time, it hasn't colored my thinking or position. After re-reading the previous posts, I really don't believe that anything said would have been different. I heartily agree with the majority. Some of them are already in my ammunition locker, just in case they're needed in the future.

Now that I don't have to select the music and arrange for cantors, this gives me more free time and a monetary increase. (Less time spent, + same pay rate = increase).

Hope this clears things up.