All Souls' 2008
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    I've been planning special Masses for All Souls' Day Nov. 2--a Sunday this year. But someone in my office was under the impression that it was "bumped" to the Monday. I'm pretty sure she's incorrect, as the ordo and everything else say Nov. 2, but just wanted to doublecheck. Thoughts?
  • Kathy, the confusion may relate to differences between the post 1970 calendar and the 1962 calendar.

    For the Mass of Paul VI, All Souls is celebrated on Sunday, November 2. In this case, your rubrical task is to figure out whether or not a Gloria should be sung. Pro: It's Sunday Mass in Ordinary Time, so there should be a Gloria. Con: It's All Souls, and the Requiem shouldn't include the Gloria. Good luck. I recall considerable confusion about this the last time All Souls fell on Sunday--I'm not sure about the final word.

    For the Mass of John XXIII, Requiem Masses are, as a rule, not celebrated on Sunday, so All Souls is moved to Monday, November 3. Sunday, November 2 is the appropriate Sunday after Pentecost, with Gloria ;-).
  • Here in Portugal the Bishop's Conference publications are very clear about November 2: All Souls, no Gloria, with Credo.
  • No Gloria in the United States per the Ordo.
  • Beth
    Posts: 53
    okay now I need some clarity, we celebrate the ordinary rite here in the missal All souls is still on Nov.2 so no Gloria on sunday even for ordinary rite?
  • NO Gloria even for the ordinary rite.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Thanks for the info, everyone.
  • Gilbert
    Posts: 106
    Hey, so the Mass on Saturday evening, is that gonna be an All Saints Day Mass, or an All Souls Day Mass?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    My ordo is silent on your question, Gilbert.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I'm going to take the easy way out. I will say, "Monsignor, what would you like me to do on Nov. 2?"
  • Gilbert,

    Mass on Saturday evening of 1st November 2008 is the Mass of All Souls.
  • Gilbert
    Posts: 106
    Ok, so why is it the feast of All Souls? Is their something in writing about when this happens, cuz for the Office, 2nd Vespers on Saturday evening is for All Saints.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I checked with the monsignor and we broke out the ordo. There is no gloria on All Souls Sunday for the OF. He also informed me that he will be wearing black and that the choir should sing some version of "May Choirs of Angels Escort You into Paradise." Doesn't sound bad to me at all.
  • CharlesW,

    If you are up for it, check out this.

    Note: I tried to upload a PDF file, but the forum tells me that PDF files should have a .rar extension. What's up with that?

    CharlesW, go to CPDL and check out my transcription of Esquivel's In paradisum
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Many thanks. I am looking over the score now. It looks wonderful.
  • In the Gregorian Missal at pg. 670, the instruction for All Souls says,

    The first mass formulary is the only sung mass on this day.

    Could someone give me the quick explanation of what this means? I understand that the chants come from the Masses for the Dead, but what exactly is the "first mass formulary"?

    (I'm wanting to avoid using the music suggestions from the GIA Quarterly, and make this closer to a true All Souls Mass).
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Speaking of which, for those who can't use the propers, what are the best hymn options for a requiem Mass from a typical (or even decent) Catholic hymnal? I've only ever seen "Jesus, Lord, Have Mercy" in We Celebrate. And at the time of my last All Soul's day, my parish didn't know Adoro Te, so I just put "Help Lord the Souls" to St. Flavian (I think). Not that I'm saying either are exceptional hymns dealing with purgatory and the faithful departed, but at least they deal with it. For funerals, I usually do include the "comfort" component of something good like "The King of Love", but for a straight-up requiem, you don't have a use for that component in non-proper music. I suppose one could use a setting of psalm 116 (I think) due to the verse "precious in the eyes of the Lord is the death of His saints." That's all I could think of from a regular hymnal.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499

    Jerusalem, My Happy Home and I Know That My Redeemer Lives might be especially apt.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Aha! Thank you Kathy. Those two I think also fit well within the general "theme" of a requiem Mass, if necessary. To those who object to "resurrection" music for a requiem, I need only say that if Christ had not died and risen, Purgatory would be no option, and the only place anyone would be is Hell.
  • When I planned the Diocesan All Suuls Day Mass, this is what I used:

    I Heard the Voice of Jesus

    Attende Domine (penitential, supplication for the souls in purgatory)

    Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence

    Salve Regina (this hymn is sung at funerals for priests, from what I understand)

    I have also used Alleluia, Sing to Jesus ("where the souls of all the sinless sweep across the crystal sea") and "We Have Been Told" (one of the few Haas songs I like and do not find theologically deficient).
  • My mass plan reads thus for that day: Entrance Hymn: Receive their souls (the final commendation text, set to music by David Haas; singable and not "stupid" sounding.

    Communion: Jesus, Remember Me , with verses added to it referencing the Eucharist

    Recessional: We Know that Christ Is Raised and Dies No More
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    There's a Wideness in God's Mercy is possible. I'm considering Our Father, We Have Wandered (Worship III).
  • I'm afraid my question (above) may have gotten buried in the most recent responses.

    Does anyone know what is meant by "first mass formulary" as called for in the Gregorian Missal on All Souls?
  • Gavin asked:
    Speaking of which, for those who can't use the propers, what are the best hymn options for a requiem Mass from a typical (or even decent) Catholic hymnal?

    Well, there is the Tietze metrical introit in the WLP collection of introit hymns. Likewise, I believe Lynn Trapp has something for funerals with ST. COLUMBA published by GIA.

    I myself have also done a metrical introit hymn for funerals. Nothing fancy, but it simplifies things not to have to worry about copyright for it. I also did one for Easter season funerals...which most folks seem to have neglected to do. We sing both to ST. COLUMBA.

    I also wrote an SATB a cappella setting of the funeral offertory that actually has never been sung. It’ll receive its “premiere” this year when my parish’s choir sings it for All Souls.

    And, if I can stretch the bit of shameless self-promotion a bit further, I have also written responsorial translations of the various communions prescribed in the Graduale Romanum for funerals. The “Lux æterna” communion is one of the few in that collection (I’ve got them all done--110+ antiphons translated to English and set to responsorial form.) that has seen multiple uses, and it seems to work well. It’s also one of the few where the “advantage” of using it rather than another song is immediately apparent; what better words to sing for communion at a funeral than “May eternal light shine on them, O Lord, with all your saints forever, for you are rich in mercy”?
  • Just to be sure...

    As it is a Requiem Mass, I'm able to to actually do all of the Requiem Propers, correct?

    What about the Dies Irae?
  • jatucker: yes, sing the Dies Irae

    Lawrence: that's not permitted according to the rubrics, not that those matter

    O'Connor: We need to adhere to the rite and not mix forms

    jatucker: it is not mixing forms so much as permitting gravitational pull.

    Lawrence: the pull is fine so long as it is in one direction

    O'Connor: I'm telling you, this is dangerous

    jatucker: some danger! We've done it a hundred times and the world hasn't ended. Besides, the 1970 Missal said all propers apart from two are permitted

    Lawrence: all propers that are printed are permitted, not that the print matters

  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I will second the Tietze from "Introit Hymns." It's one of the more useful of its kind in the entire collection. "Grant them eternal rest, O Lord" from the funeral section of Worship III (with Gelineau psalmody) is not so bad. "People's Mass Book" has two suites of accompanied chant propers for the Requiem Mass in English, and Marier has newly composed chant-like settings in Hymns, Psalms, and Spiritual Canticles. The latter is out of print, but it is worth doing a google search. My copy of the Order of Christian Funerals does include suggestions for hymns such as "Alleluia! The strife is o'er" and "I know that my Redeemer lives" but All Souls is not a funeral per se. Whereas an important part of the funeral liturgy is ministering to those grieving the loss of an individual, on All Souls we commemorating all of the faithful departed.
  • In light of Summorum Pontificum, I would be inclined to delineate Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms as sharply as possible by following their respective rubrics to the letter. Which in the case of the Requiem Mass is about as painful as it gets. The modern Graduale Romanum makes no provision for the traditional Sequence (Dies Irae), and stipulates a (very non-traditional) Alleluia with its verse. There it is, I'm sorry to say.

    Of course, the Dies Irae used quasi-liturgically, at Offertory or Communion, could conceivably fall under the heading of "other suitable songs". But interpolating Sequences (as Sequences) that are not in the rubrics is as non-rubrically maverick as any modern innovation (with the exception of clowns, perhaps), and not the healthiest expression of "mutual enrichment" (to satisfy ones own sensus liturgicus). If you really, really want to sing the Sequence (as a Sequence) on November 2, request a Mass in the Extraordinary Form. (In which case, you'll be singing it on November 3, which is when the Feast is celebrated according to the traditional calendar.)

    (And, while you're at it, might as well request a second Extraordinary Form Mass for Sunday, the 25th after Pentecost.)

    And have a happy weekend.

    (Other painful encounters with the modern rubrics include: For an Ordinary Form funeral Mass, the blessing of the casket preempts the penitential rite; thus, the Kyrie is not sung. Requiem Introit without its Kyrie? Unthinkable, I know. But that's what the rubrics say, at least in the American version of the Sacramentary.)

  • Ok, just now getting back to this thread. I'm inclined to think that Richard is right here. A funeral Mass is one thing--and we've done the Sequence for that--but All Souls is a stretched. However, if a priest wanted it that would be great. But it all comes down to what you push and what you do not. We will do Dies Irae for offertory.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Could it legitimately be done as a prelude?
  • in the OF, just about anything can be legitimately done. Well, not quite, but I guess the answer is yes.

    By the way, I see nothing "wrong" at all in singing it as a Sequence since the Missal says that all but two Sequences are optional and some of the best musician-liturgists in this country use Dies Irae as the Seq in the OF. but we don't need to somehow fight that one in our parish. Offertory is fine.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Might I add (at the risk of bringing up this whole stupid debate again) that even most people who know what a sequence is wouldn't know that/if it's forbidden for OF Requiems. So I wouldn't be concerned about any pious old ladies fainting at the sound of the Illegitimate Sequence.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    David, there are three Masses for All Souls, (although I notice one of my disposable missals only has the one)

    For those looking for hymns, there is a pretty good text, Remember These (Those?) O Lord, Who in Your Peace Have Died, by James Quinn, IIRC, which would be most apt for All Souls, it is the only modern hymn text I can think of off-hand that references purgatory.
    And "Lead Kindly Light" and Croft's "I Am the Resurrection and the Life" will probably figure in my proper-phobic programming...

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • On November 2nd, 2008, the New York Catholic Chorale and Schola ( will assist at the All Soul's Day Mass at historic St. Mary's Church in Albany New York. We will be offering Faure's Requiem in a latin novus ordo liturgy, so the mechanics of the operation are a bit daunting. My current sense of the project are as follows:

    1. Introit and Kyrie per Faure.
    2. No Gloria!
    3. Gradual/Alleluia/Tract per Graduale Romanum, to wit: Requiem aeternam (II), De Profundis (VII), Absolve (VIII).
    4. Credo per Graduale Romanum, to wit: Credo III.
    5. Offertory per Faure.
    6. Sanctus per Faure followed immediately by Benedictus recto tono (Faure did not set the Benedictus!).
    7. Split Bendictus recto tono following proclamation of "mysterimum fide...mortem tuam....." OR the Pie Jesu Faure did compose for the post-consecration.
    8. Agnus Dei per Faure.
    9. Communion per Graduale Romanum, to wit: Lux Aeterna VIII.

    My big questions are--What is the best strategy for steps #6 and #7, above??? And, even if we squeeze in the Pie Jesu after the consecration, what do we do with Faure's Libera Me and In Paradisum??? Remember, this is a Latin Novus Ordo liturgy, but, in any case, we don't want to short-change Faure!!

    Any help from the experts would be greatly appreciated.

    --Illuminandus in Albania, Nova Eboraci--
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    Speaking of the "No Gloria" rule, what is the document or documents that make this rule clear? I need something to give our music director and/or priest. I've already checked the GIRM and found nothing on point.

    Supposing one did sing the Gloria on All Souls' Day, what would be a good setting to sing?

  • One can always check the "Ordo" generally found in every sacristy. They are published every year to answer questions just such as this. It will always tell you whether there is a "gloria" or not as well as what feast is celebrated on what day, what color vestment is worn, etc. I have even seen them for sale in good religious book stores if the sacristy copy can't be found. My parish always gives me a copy every year so that I may properly prepare for the year.
  • Suggestion: sing only the Sanctus at the appropriate place. Then sing the Benedictus from his "Messe Basse" after the elevation. The Pie Jesu works even better as a Communion motet after the AD.