Worship IV: What POSITIVE text changes have you found?
  • Here are some of the text changes in the Lent and Holy Week hymns that I think were positive contributions of the Worship IV text committee:

    1. Before the Fruit Is Ripened by the Sun (SURSUM CORDA), #468: The text is in both Worship III & IV, appearing in the Lent section of both hymnals. In Worship III, the first text phrase of the second stanza had the words “Easter Alleluias” in it. Since our Catholic tradition avoids the use of the word Alleluia during Lent, this text for Worship IV was changed to “Easter praises.” Also, Worship IV assigns to this text a more accessible tune than was in Worship III.

    2. Parce Domine/Spare Us, Gracious Lord (PARCE DOMINE), #469: In Worship III, the refrain was in Latin, and the verses in English. In Worship IV, the refrain can be sung in either Latin or English, and the verses are from the Revised Grail Psalter.

    3. Again We Keep This Solemn Fast (ERHALT UNS HERR), #474: The text is the same in Worship III & IV except for the second half of the first stanza. There, Worship IV’s use of “forty days” instead of “Lent” is more scriptural, as are the words “contrite hearts.”

    4. Once We sang and Danced with Gladness (KAS DZIEDAJA), #477: The tune is used in both Worship III & IV. Worship III’s text is a paraphrase of Psalm 137, but the adaptation has some issues. The new text for Worship IV, also based on Psalm 137, is much better.

    5. My Song Is Love Unknown (LOVE UNKNOWN), #490: Worship III had three stanzas. Worship IV has seven stanzas of this great poetic text.

    [Some new additions to Worship IV in the Lent & Holy Week sections that I find particularly welcome are: From Ashes to the Living Font (#463); Restore in Us, O God (#476); As the Winter Days Grow Longer (#479); No Tramp of Soldiers’ Marching Feet (#482); Glory in the Cross (#486)]
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Nice to see a positive review of a Rae Whitney text, after the beating "My Elder Son" took yesterday.

    I read this a little too quickly and my eyes did not process the quotation marks at first.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,303
    wrong. so wrong...
    Thanked by 1matthewj
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,174
    You didn't really beat hymn, did you!?
    Thanked by 1ZacPB189
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 927
    5. My Song Is Love Unknown (LOVE UNKNOWN), #490: Worship III had three stanzas. Worship IV has seven stanzas of this great poetic text.


    *Applause*
  • Here are some of the text changes in Easter hymns that I think were positive contributions of the Worship IV text committee:

    1. Now the Green Blade Rises (NOEL NOUVELET), #495: The first and second musical phrases of this hymn are identical. However, in Worship III (as in other hymnals), the first two notes of the second musical phrase are slurred, thus changing the meter and causing some textual confusion. This was corrected in Worship IV. The revisions make the text easier to sing.

    2. Be Joyful, Mary (REGINA CAELI), #501: In Worship III, the text is entirely in English. In Worship IV, the alternate Latin text is given for the recurring “Be joyful, Mary!” and “Rejoice, rejoice, O Mary” phrases.

    3. Christ Is Alive! (TRURO), #510: This tune and Brian Wren text appear in both Worship III & IV. However, it seems that Wren revised his own text a number of years after Worship III was published. His newer text appears in Worship IV, and seems to me to be tighter and richer in imagery.

    4. The Strife Is O’er (VICTORY), #511: Worship III has four stanzas. Worship IV has five stanzas, with some beneficial text changes.

    5. At the Lamb’s High Feast We Sing (SALZBURG), #512: As another person mentioned earlier in this thread, the third stanza in Worship IV begins “Mighty victim from on high,” which is a better image than Worship III’s “Mighty victim from the sky.”

    6. Hail Thee, Festival Day! (SALVE FESTA DIES), #524: Worship III only had the Easter text. Worship IV adds the Ascension and Pentecost texts for the refrain as well as the verses, making this hymn much more versatile.

    7. Christ the Lord Is Risen Today (VICTIMAE PASCHALI), #528: Worship IV replaces Worship III’s third stanza and alters the fourth stanza in order that the hymn might be a more faithful metrical version of the Easter Sequence.

    [Some new additions to Worship IV in the Easter section that I find particularly welcome are: If Christ Had Not Been Raised From Death (#497); Day of Delight (#499); Earth, Earth, Awake! (#504); Christ Has Risen (#505); This Is a Day of New Beginnings (#508); Rise to Sing! The Light Is Breaking (#517)]
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,998
    I'm very interested to see Wren's revisions to Christ Is Alive! The text as in WIII seems problematic. 1) The empty cross isn't a scriptural image of the resurrection; the empty tomb is. The cross was "empty to the sky" when He lay in the tomb. 2) Christ never was "bound to distant years in Palestine." Even when among us, He reigned from on high over all.

    I'm not sure that "Mighty victim from on high" is as accurate a translation of "O vera caeli victima", and whether we haven't lost something in the exchange. It's not a huge difference either way, but "caeli" and "sky" are more exactly related. I do think the consonantal sound has been softened, which to my ears, at this place in a strong tune, is not desirable.

    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,303
    but "caeli" and "sky" are more exactly related.


    But "caeli" evokes more a sense of "heaven" than does "sky" in modern usage.
    (I can't imagine anyone translating the second line of the Sanctus as "the sky and the land are full of your glory"... although, come to think of it- that's kinda neat.)

    I think for many people, equating "heaven" with "the sky" (as in "my invisible friend in the sky") seems quaint or silly.

    But that's just me.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,313
    I'm very interested to see Wren's revisions to Christ Is Alive! The text as in WIII seems problematic.


    Kathy, I would estimate that at least half the hymn texts in Worship III that are copyrighted by Hope Publishing and that have been carried over into Worship IV have seen some text changes from that publisher.

    Certainly I cannot authorize Musica Sacra to carry a Hope-copyrighted hymn text. But have hope. And contact Hope Publishing's online hymnody site, where you can see any hymn text they publish: http://hopepublishing.com/html/main.isx?sitesec=40.1.0.0

    You can compare the updated Wren text with what you find in Worship III to see if your objections have been addressed and, if not, if you'd like to continue the discussion of that here.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    While on Wren, Fr. Chepponis, is the fourth verse of his "When love is found" (O WALY WALY) still included? I've commented elsewhere (can't recall where) that verse to be presumptious. Other than that, hunky dory. For those who aren't familiar:

    When love is torn and trust betrayed,
    Pray strength to love till torments fade,
    Till lovers keep no score of wrong,
    But hear through pain love's Easter song.

    It's not the use of "lovers" I find troublesome. It's more about "when" instead of "if." Or "Should love be torn...." But even with those alterations, it still seems squishy.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,998
    Fr. Krisman,

    Good, I'll check.

    When I wrote the above (working from memory) I'd forgotten about the unrevised verse 3. Egads!

  • Charlie (Melo),

    Thanks for asking. Yes, that same stanza is present in Worship IV. The copyright on the text is 1983, and I'm not aware if the text has been revised since then. My guess is no, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong about that.

    An observation on the use of the word "When" that begins the stanza: My guess is that it's a poetic construct, as each of the four stanzas begins with the words "When love...". The fifth stanza doesn't, as it's somewhat doxological.

    I hope all is well in CA!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,998
    Thankfully vs. 3 has been omitted entirely.

    My problems with vss. 1 and 2 remain, slightly ameliorated by the change from "his cross" to "the cross," making the cross a universal symbol, perhaps as in the great Carthusian motto, " Stat crux dum volvitur orbis."

    In the new vs. 4, original to the revised version, there is a problem with the series, "the way, the truth, the life." As we can see in the scriptural dialogue from which this phrase comes, these are not "revealed in" Jesus. Thomas asked the way; Jesus replied, "I AM the way (etc.) He doesn't reveal them but is them. I realize this is subtle, but it's an important difference, between being taught something, and being with someone.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,705
    I am generally in favor of replacing what I've heard referred to as "Sky King" poeticisms that have become equivocal through shifts in usage and read today more as some latter-day Odin than the Christian understanding of the King of Heaven/Universe.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,303
    I cannot authorize Musica Sacra to carry a Hope-copyrighted.


    From the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 107 (emphasis mine)

    the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
    1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
    2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
    3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
    4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

    ---------

    The idea that you can't post a copyrighted hymn text here for the purposes of criticism and comment is just... misinformed.

    And no one needs to approve anything.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,998
    I am generally in favor of replacing what I've heard referred to as "Sky King" poeticisms that have become equivocal through shifts in usage and read today more as some latter-day Odin than the Christian understanding of the King of Heaven/Universe.

    In a post-Bultmanian world, I would think that attitude is prevalent. It may not be entirely helpful, nor are flippant characterizations such as "Sky King" and "Odin" the same as thinking. The Scriptural attestations of the Son of Man being sent from heaven are many. Who are we to say that they are outmoded?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,303
    I think "from heaven" and "from the sky" are a bit different to modern ears.

    I do have to say I get really annoyed the idiotic assertion the Ascension didn't happen because of how far Jesus would be had he been traveling away from Earth (into the sky) at such-and-such a speed. STUPID.

    Imagery about descending from above, or ascending into the sky or so forth make sense in context. But saying that the incarnation happens because the Second Person has come "from the sky" just seems silly to me. (TO ME.)

    If the decision were ever up to me:
    -if it was easy to make a change in a text ("from on high" instead of "from the sky") I probably would
    -if it doing so messed up rhyme, meter, or sense- i'd probably leave it. People know "what's up."
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,722
    Glad to hear the festal texts for "Hail Thee Festival Day" are added!
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,705
    Kathy

    Sent from Heaven is not the same thing as sent from the sky. The sky is the created world.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,722
    Are you forgetting that "heaven" can refer to the sky: e.g., "The heavens are telling the glory of God".

    In some languages, the same word is consistently used for the two things. We'd be a little poorer if we lost the symbolic connection of the sky and heaven.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,954
    Didn't you know Jesus was an alien who came from the sky? Haven't you been watching the History Channel? ;-) Oh, and the aliens built the Great Pyramid, too.

    BTW, I like the "heaven" image better, too.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I miss Carl Sagan....
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,303
    image
    Thanked by 2Gavin CharlesW
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,705
    Well, the heavens and Heaven are not the same thing, though related lexically. I am not saying sky needs to be purged, only that when used in this way it merits review for possible replacement by a stronger allusion. The fact that a source language uses the same word for the two different concepts does not mean that it is best practice for that to find correspondence in English (a particularly weak norm for translation/rendering).
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,303
    a source language uses the same word for the two different concepts does not mean that it is best practice for that to find correspondence in English


    cf: All dark colors are "purple".

    Actually this happens a lot, and is a frequent point of annoyance for me with respect to self-proclaimed purists.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "Who are we to say that they are outmoded?"

    The very people who are expected to sing/program these texts.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,313
    Charles, concerning the fourth stanza of Wren's "When Love Is Found," you wrote:

    But even with those alterations, it still seems squishy.


    I don't find the stanza squishy, but I would not promote the use of this hymn at weddings, chiefly because of stanzas 3 and 4. (If couples want to use it, fine; but I would do nothing to encourage it.) Of course love is tried, and torn and betrayed, and loved ones are even replaced, but it seems to be somewhat of a downer to sing of these things at a wedding.

    Still, I think this is a great hymn, not just a good one, a great one. I could see it used to great effect at the annual diocesan celebration for couples having significant anniversaries, at retreats for married couples, and on that "marriage Sunday," Sun 27 OT B. And who doesn't love that "holy eroticism" in stanza 1, in this age of increasing E.D.? (Or did some of you miss that?)
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,705
    Well, I can think of a priest who at baptisms (of infants, not just adults) would remind parents that the future life of the baptised could be wonderful...or not. I remember a long digression into all the bad things that could befall the child (including drug addiction, prostitution, and ending up at the Pine Street Inn in Boston....)
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Yes, Fr. Krisman, we're on the same page. I've read Wren's book on his texts, but the freshness they had in the 80's hasn't held well into the 21st C. If it were to find its way into an actual wedding liturgy, I'd simply do 1,2 and 5 using Wren's suggestion of an echo duet.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,303
    the freshness they had in the 80's hasn't held well into the 21st C.


    Not a rare occurrence.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    The idea that you can't post a copyrighted hymn text here for the purposes of criticism and comment is just... misinformed.

    While true in a limited sense, it must be pointed out that:

    1. You cannot post a copyrighted text just to say, "Here I invite people to comment on and criticize this."

    2. You cannot post an entire copyrighted text with the general criticism, "This is awful, I don't like this."
    Thanked by 2Gavin CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,303
    Says who?
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    I just realized that I Receive the Living God contains a significant Positive change. I did not see it mentioned in this thread, so I thought I would mention it here.

    Fr. Krisman, THANK YOU for changing "kneaded long to give you life" in verse 31 to "sent to you from God Most High!"

    The "kneaded" idea always troubled me. I think this change definitely warrants being mentioned in this Positive Change thread!!
    Thanked by 2Kathy CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,998
    Wow, that is excellent!
    Thanked by 1Ignoto
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,313
    Thanks, Ignoto and Kathy.

    When you Google “I Receive the Living God” the 13th entry has this not very flattering description: “with bastardized text and added verses.” So my translation will probably always carry that description!

    I always liked the word “kneaded” in the first (not the third) verse. But it is nowhere to be found in the original French text:

    Il m’a dit : “Je suis le Pain préparé pour vous nourrir.
    Celui qui me mangera ne peut craindre de mourir.”

    A very rough literal translation of the French is:
    He has said to me: “I am the Bread, prepared to nourish you.
    Whoever will eat me cannot fear to die.”

    My translation is not completely literal, as I needed to add some text to fill out the lines:

    Jesus says: I am the Bread
    Sent to you from God Most High.
    Take and eat, and you will live;
    You need never fear to die.
    Thanked by 2Ignoto CHGiffen
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    Thank you for the correction, Fr. Krisman. My brain thought "verse 1" and my fingers typed "verse 3." :-)

    Your rough literal translation of the French helps me understand how "kneaded" originally got in there...from "prepared."

    I think, that without having previously been exposed to the original text, what troubled me about "kneaded" was that the Host is unleavened. So on a literal level, having "Received" the Living (hey, my fingers just typed "Loving" on that one and I had to backspace!) God via the Host, I just couldn't figure out how kneading was relevant.

    I can understand the reasoning behind it a little better in the sense that it comes from "prepared," but since "kneading" just leaves this too-bready connotation, the new text conceptually has greater "breadth."