Worship IV: What POSITIVE text changes have you found?
  • Fr. Jim Chepponis
    Posts: 220
    There have been many comments about the hymns in Worship IV on this forum. I think that’s a good thing, as long as the discussions continue to remain intelligent and respectful, even if some folks perceive textual issues.

    Now, how about a discussion about what people perceive as the POSITIVE text changes in Worship IV? Granted, some people who have participated thus far in discussions about Worship IV do not have access to the hymnal. But for those who do, what text changes from Worship III or other familiar hymnals seem to be an improvement in Worship IV, and why?

    (A DISCLAIMER: Although I was on the Worship IV core committee to decide the book’s contents, I was not involved in the editing of the texts. So, this thread is not meant to elict personal gratuitous comments.)

    Let me start with some of the more obvious text changes in Advent & Christmas season hymns that I think were positive contributions of the Worship IV text committee:

    1. O Come, O Come, Emmanuel (VENI EMMANUEL), #386: Although the text is in English, as has been the case in GIA hymnals of recent years, the Latin refrain was added as an alternate (“Gaude! Gaude! Emmanuel…”)

    2. Sleepers, Wake (WACHET AUF), #409: The text by Carl Daw seems to me more poetic and richer than the one in Worship III.

    3. Of the Father’s Love Begotten (DIVINUM MYSTERIUM), #415: Worship III had four stanzas, Worship IV has five (perhaps restoring one of the original stanzas?). For the last phrase, “Evermore and evermore,” an alternate Latin translation is included.

    4. A Child Is Born in Bethlehem (PUER NATUS), #432: Worship III had four stanzas, all in English. Worship IV has seven stanzas (translated from the original source), and all seven stanzas are printed in both English and Latin.

    5. What Star Is This (PUER NOBIS), #448: Worship III had four stanzas; Worship IV has five, restoring the third stanza.

    6. The First Nowell (THE FIRST NOWELL), #449: Worship IV restores the text on the second half of the sixth stanza: “…Who made the heav’ns and earth of naught, And with his blood our life has bought.” A clearer connection to the Paschal Mystery.

    7. We Three Kings (KINGS OF ORIENT), #452: The fifth stanza is now much more singable (“Glorious now behold him arise…”)

    Any other positive changes folks want to mention?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    off the top of my head, those seem like good revisions. unfortunately, my copy of WIV is burried in a box miles away. would be interested to know what others think.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 422
    Since we're on Advent/Christmas hymns, I believe GIA is the only of the "big 3" that includes 4 Latin verses of "O Come, All Ye Faithful." Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not really a change, but still worthy of mentioning.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,515
    I'm a big fan of Chris Idle's Wachet Auf and am sorry it won't be used as much in the future, but the rest of these changes sound good.

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    3. Of the Father’s Love Begotten (DIVINUM MYSTERIUM), #415: Worship III had four stanzas, Worship IV has five (perhaps restoring one of the original stanzas?). For the last phrase, “Evermore and evermore,” an alternate Latin translation is included.


    There are 10 verses in the original, all of them excellent.
    I print all of them in my Christmas programs.

    (Just sayin'.)
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    I notice that "I Received the Living God" is now provided in present tense: "I Receive the Living God" (and also contains "Jesus says" instead of "Jesus said"). I suppose it makes logical sense that what the Living God says would be in present tense and not past tense.

    Also, a change from Gather Comprehensive 2: The third verse of At the Lamb's High Feast now says "Mighty Victim from on high" instead of "from the sky." I can see how that might be considered a useful clarification.
  • hcmusicguy
    Posts: 63
    Regarding "I Received", Fr Krisman has offered in another thread the background of the current text usage which (correct me if I'm wrong) is a new more faithful translation from the original French. I admit that I too was taken aback by the new text until he gave the reasoning behind it.
    Thanked by 1Ignoto
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    I've tried to stay out of these Worship IV discussion since my predecessor was also an editor of the hymnal, but I'm glad to see a thread to talk about the positive changes. Thank you, Fr. Chepponis.

    I'm partial to the hymn Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence. There are only a few minor changes in Worship IV, but I like them. There are actually verbs in it now.

    And though I'm still not a fan of the text of Silence! Frenzied, Unclean Spirit, at least it's set to a singable tune in this hymnal (EBENEZER, as opposed to the mess that was AUTHORITY).
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    "Silence! Frenzied, Unclean Spirit" sounds like me talking to some of my choir. Sure you haven't been eavesdropping on my rehearsals? ;-) I haven't heard of that hymn, so I am going to have to look it up. As I mentioned on some post at some time, I probably only use about 30 % or so of the hymns in the book.
    Thanked by 1Ralph Bednarz
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Look it up in Worship III. The tune, and especially the harmonization, is an exercise in Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
  • Fr. Jim Chepponis
    Posts: 220
    In Worship IV, "Silence! Frenzied, Unclean Spirit" is hymn number... 666!

    Believe it or not, this wasn't planned. It's just an eerie coincidence that happened as the hymns were laid out and numbered for the book.

    (Twilight Zone music, anyone?)
    Thanked by 11jpal francis Spriggo Kathy irishtenor redsox1 BruceL Andrew Motyka CHGiffen Earl_Grey Ralph Bednarz
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    That is awesome, and may in and of itself cause me to purchase a copy.
    Thanked by 2francis irishtenor
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,515
    lol
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    That is awesome, and may in and of itself cause me to purchase a copy.


    Adam, I'm going to have GIA sent you a free copy. Save your money for the new baby. Send me your address.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU
    Thanked by 1Fr. Jim Chepponis
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    @ronkrisman Thanks!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,515
    I can't wait till you get it. We haven't even scratched the surface.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    New Full Page Ad for Worship IV

    (oops... put 'conscience' instead of 'conscious'. probably a freudian slip)
    participating.jpg
    600 x 776 - 775K
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    that's HELLarious
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    That brings up a question I've long had . . . if one is going to put together a Christian hymnal, why not just skip the number 666? I don't think I would ever put that number up on my hymn board, nor announce it before we sang it.

    Fortunately, that number in both of my current hymnals are hymns that I don't like anyway. ; )
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I should think giving in to superstition is a trifle... superstitious.
    Thanked by 3Gavin Andrew Motyka CHGiffen
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    Heath, wouldn't the very elimination of the number 666 be an indication that the one doing the elimination is buying into this fundamentalistic clap trap?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I remember my mother pointed out #666 in an OCP Breaking Bread: "Mother dearest"
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    Gavin:

    Apparently she was trying to get your attention!
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "In Worship IV, "Silence! Frenzied, Unclean Spirit" is hymn number... 666!

    Believe it or not, this wasn't planned."

    I'm actually EXTREMELY surprised by that. I know some people on the committee for a hymnal ("Hymns of Truth and Light" - UCC) who tell me that each and every hymn number was very carefully decided. So I assumed this was a normal part of hymnal creation - though it wouldn't surprise me if these people were just being overly fussy.
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,186
    Some people are superstitious; others are a little stitious.
    Thanked by 3Ben Kathy eft94530
  • Fr. Jim Chepponis
    Posts: 220
    Here's another change in a Christmas hymn in Worship IV (that I forgot to mention in my original post) that seems positive to me:

    The tune RESONET IN LAUDIBUS is used in both Worship III ("Christ Was Born on Christmas Day," #396) and Worship IV ("You Came Among Us at Christmas Time," #418).

    The version of the tune in Worship III is truncated, while the tune in Worship IV is the fuller version. The new text in Worship IV (with six stanzas and a refrain) seems much more useful than the text in Worship III (four stanzas, no refrain.)

    Although having a few Latin phrases in the Worship III text version was nice, one of our hymnal committee members commented that the text there seemed more appropriate to sing while decorating a Christmas tree! ("Wreathe the holly, twine the bay;" "Let the bright red berries glow.")
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    In my opinion there are some wonderful additions for the Advent season: Wild and Lone the Prophet's Voice (390); Awaken Sleepers (393); Though Famed in Israel's Royal History (396); Like a Bird (397); Are You the Coming One (399); A Morning Star Draws Near (400); Unexpected and Mysterious (407); Now the Heavens Start to Whisper (408); As Servants Working an Estate (411). Twenty-seven entries in all for the Advent category, as opposed to nineteen in Worship III. Perhaps a few too many entries for a 4-week season. New entries nos. 397, 399, 400, 408 are GIA copyrights, so those texts could be printed here. Perhaps one of Mary Louise Bringle's texts - no. 400 or 408?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    Gentlemen and Ladies:

    You owe it to yourselves to read this thread too:

    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/8899/what-is-the-purpose-of-hymnody-in-the-roman-catholic-mass-of#Item_46
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,515
    Fr. Krisman,

    Bring it on.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Were the number of Advent hymns discussed in the meetings of the committee putting the hymnal together?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    Were the number of Advent hymns discussed in the meetings of the committee putting the hymnal together?


    Not specifically. At the core committee's final meeting we deleted about 30 hymns. One was the Advent hymn, How Brightly Beams (WIE SCHON LEUCHTET). Despite the fact that this is a very important item in the history of Christian hymnody, GIA's research among long-time users of Worship III (mostly cathedral directors of music), showed almost no use of this hymn any more by congregations. It had become pretty exclusively a choir piece.

    The GIA core committee was more likely to discuss too few entries in certain categories, leading to a search to find some additional hymns for them.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    Bring it on.


    I hope to be able to post something by this evening. Most likely Bringle's "Now the Heavens Start to Whisper."
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Back to positive changes, I quite like both the text and tune of #691 The Lord is My Savior, text by Rae E. Whitney, 1994 Selah Publishing to the tune PADERBORN (which I'd never seen before, to be honest). It's a simple piece but very sing-able and with some imagery that is quite inspiring in my opinion.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    matthewj,

    Nice to see a positive review of a Rae Whitney text, after the beating "My Elder Son" took yesterday.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,221
    Once I came upon a pulp music book that assigned number 666 to the plainchant Credo III. Now that's not a very good message about the faith, is it? :-)
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I remember the hymnal of parish where I grew up (Catholic Book of Worship 2) had assigned 666 to Let Heaven Rejoice. No clue why that's stuck with me, but I believe it to be accurate. Also number 660 was Sing a New Song, which we sang an awful lot.
    Thanked by 2Kathy canadash
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Digression alert: I believe the number of the beast underwent some archeological scrutiny a few years back, whether it was ala "The Gospel of Thomas" or not, meh! The upshot is that whether it's "666" or "669" the connotation was culturally propelled into urban legend status by the film "The Omen." Let it go. I don't recall people cowering about the 13th floor of a skyscraper after the film "Being John Malkovich" came out.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    or the 7 1/2 floor
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    Hymn 666 in The Hymnal 1982 is "Out of the depths I call," a metrical paraphrase of Psalm 130. Tune is St. Bride by Samuel Howard.
  • Fr. Jim Chepponis
    Posts: 220
    Hymn 666 in The Hymnal 1982 is "Out of the depths I call," a metrical paraphrase of Psalm 130. Tune is St. Bride by Samuel Howard.
    Of course, there's no connection between a bride and 666, is there?!

    (A thread about wedding music horror stories might be interesting!)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I thought we had one, but all I could find was this one for Funerals:

    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/3731/worst-funeral-stories-funny...-much-later/p1

    (Which, unsurprisingly, turned into a thread about gender and grammar.)
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    I should think giving in to superstition is a trifle... superstitious.


    Heath, wouldn't the very elimination of the number 666 be an indication that the one doing the elimination is buying into this fundamentalistic clap trap?


    Hmm . . . I must be missing something.

    --Has not the number 666 had diabolical associations in the Christian mind for the last 1900 years or so?
    --Would the average pew-sitter be given pause if he saw that number up on the hymn board while he was praying before Mass?
    --Would a music director be more or less likely to choose a particular hymn if it was 666 in the book or 667?
    --Adam, would you be more or less excited if a text of yours that had been selected for inclusion in a hymnal had been assigned to no. 666?
    --What is the percentage of people that would even notice if that number was eliminated from a hymnal?

    I am neither superstitious, nor a fundamentalist . . . now, I'm off to avoid any black cats that I may come across.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    --Adam, would you be more or less excited if a text of yours that had been selected for inclusion in a hymnal had been assigned to no. 666?


    Better than not being included at all.
    Also, people would be sure to remember it.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    What is the percentage of people that would even notice if that number was eliminated from a hymnal?


    That depends.
    Do you think they would write "This page intentionally left blank." in a nice sans serif font?
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    Better than not being included at all.
    Also, people would be sure to remember it.


    That was your way of saying "less excited", correct? ; )
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Honestly, I don't know if I would care. I think I would get a chuckle out of it.
    And write a funny poem.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    If I were using the number 666 I'd be much more worried about running out of 6's across multiple hymn boards than the satanic connotation.

    The flipped-over 9's never look quite right.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood Heath Spriggo Salieri
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    If I were using the number 666 I'd be much more worried about running out of 6's across multiple hymn boards than the satanic connotation.


    OMG THIS!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    yes, tis a problem with hymnals arranged by liturgical year... i have two sets of everything!
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    Yep . . . I'm always running out of the number one at my smaller parish, especially since all the Lenten hymns were grouped between 105 and 119. Another reason that I prefer hymns to be listed alphabetically!
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