Is the Vatican II Hymnal a Catholic Hymnal?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    When a similarly-titled thread was opened this past Saturday, it was Worship IV being scrutinized. The author referred to many of the non-Catholic hymn contributors to Worship IV, and closed with these questions:

    All of the above leads me to ask: is this really a Catholic hymnal? If so, in what sense?

    Or maybe this question could be asked the other way: Is Worship IV consciously ecumenical?


    I would never dream that the Vatican II Hymnal [hereafter V2H] is consciously ecumenical. Perhaps unconsciously Anglican, but not consciously ecumenical.

    Reading through the texts of the 163 hymns contained in the V2H, I found that at least 97 of them were written by or translated by non-Catholics. I was not able to track down the provenance of the texts for an additional 12 hymns. (It would be helpful if the V2H’s online accompaniments would consistently identify text authors and translators. As I do not own a copy of the pew edition of the V2H, I don’t know if this important information is given there.) I could only verify that 54 texts were authored by or translated by Catholics. Below is a listing of the 97 texts authored by or translated by non-Catholics, followed by the 12 hymns whose provenance I was unable to determine. My reflections follow in the next combox.

    346 Ah, Holy Jesus (Heermann; tr. Robert Bridges)
    359 A Hymn Of Glory Let Us Sing [Bede; tr. B. Webb (Anglican)]
    206 All Creatures Of Our God And King (Draper)
    277 Alleluia, Sing To Jesus (Dix)
    242 All Glory, Laud, And Honor (tr. Neale)
    225 All Hail The Power Of Jesus’ Name (Perronet)
    204 All People That On Earth Do Dwell (Kethe)
    281 And Now, O Father, Mindful Of The Love (William Bright)
    236 As With Gladness Men Of Old (Dix)
    310 At The Name Of Jesus (Caroline Noel)
    308 Blessed Jesus, At Thy Word (Clausnitzer; tr. Winkworth)
    320 Blest Are The Pure In Heart (Neale)
    337 Brightest And Best (Heber)
    306 Christ Is Made The Sure Foundation (Neale)
    364 Come Down, O Love Divine (tr. Littledale)
    254 Come, Holy Ghost (Neale?)
    361 Come, Holy Ghost, Our Souls Inspire (Rabanus Maurus; tr. John Cosin)
    312 Come, Labor On (Borthwick)
    329 Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus (C. Wesley)
    247 Come, Ye Faithful, Raise The Strain (tr. Neale)
    327 Creator Of The Stars Of Night (tr. Neale?)
    316 Deck Thyself, My Soul, With Gladness (tr. Winkworth)
    278 Draw Nigh, And Take (Version I) (tr. Neale)
    279 Draw Nigh, And Take (Version II) (tr. Neale)
    360 Eternal Monarch, King Most High (Neale)
    321 Fairest Lord Jesus, Ruler Of All Nature (tr. Joseph Seiss, Lutheran)
    208 Faith Of Our Fathers
    322 Father, We Thank Thee Who Hast Planted
    263 For All The Saints
    207 For The Beauty Of The Earth (Pierpoint, Anglican)
    241 Forty Days And Forty Nights (Smyttan, Anglican)
    262 From All Thy Saints In Warfare (Neale)
    335 From East To West, From Shore To Shore (Sedulius; tr. Allerton)
    328 Gabriel’s Message Does Away (Piae Cantiones; tr. Neale)
    325 God, My King, Thy Might Confessing (Richard Mant)
    212 God Of Mercy, God Of Grace (Lyte)
    366 Hail, O Star That Pointest (A. Riley)
    252 Hail The Day That Sees Him Rise (C. Wesley)
    230 Hark! The Herald Angels Sing (C. Wesley)
    264 Hearken, Shepherd Of The Sheep (tr. Littledale)
    314 Here, O My Lord, I See Thee (Bonar)
    251 He, Who Gave For Us His Life (Michael Weisse, ordained Catholic priest; left and became Bohemian Brethren)
    209 Holy, Holy, Holy! Lord God Almighty (Heber)
    238 “I Come,” The Great Redeemer Cries (Thomas Gibbons)
    355 I Know That My Redeemer Lives (Medley, Baptist)
    315 In Heavenly Love Abiding (Anna Waring, Anglican)
    218 I Sing The Mighty Power Of God (Watts)
    319 I Sought The Lord, And Afterward I Knew (anon.)
    249 Jesus Christ Is Risen Today (tr., st. 1-3 Compleat Psalmodist; st. 4 C. Wesley)
    373 Jesus, Son Of Mary (Adoro Te?) (tr. Edmund Stuart Palmer)
    232 Joy To The World (Watts)
    286 Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence (tr. G. Moultrie, Anglican)
    313 Let Thy Blood In Mercy Poured (tr. Brownlie)
    299 Let Thy People Praise Thee, Lord (Lyte)
    244 Lift High The Cross
    211 Lift Up Your Heads, Ye Mighty Gates (tr. Winkworth)
    301 Lord, Enthroned In Heavenly Splendor (Bourne, Anglican)
    240 Lord, Who Throughout These Forty Days (Hernaman, Anglican)
    276 Love Divine, All Loves Excelling (C. Wesley)
    356 Love’s Redeeming Work Is Done (C. Wesley)
    300 May The Grace Of Christ Our Savior (Newton)
    285 My Faith Looks Up To Thee (Ray Palmer, Congregationalist, USA)
    221 Now Thank We All Our God (tr. Winkworth)
    226 O Come, O Come, Emmanuel (tr. Neale)
    282 O Food Of Men Wayfaring (Version I) (tr. A. Riley)
    283 O Food Of Men Wayfaring (Version II) (tr. A. Riley)
    332 Of The Father’s Love Begotten (tr. Neale and Baker)
    307 O God Of Earth And Altar (Chesterton wrote this while he was an Anglican)
    203 O God, Our Help In Ages Past (Watts)
    352 O Kind Creator, Bow Thine Ear (tr. Thomas A. Lacey, Anglican)
    223 O Lord Of Heaven, Whose Love Profound (Edward Cooper, Anglican)
    348 O Love, How Deep, How Broad (Webb, Anglican)
    336 Once In Royal David’s City (Cecil Alexander)
    229 On Jordan’s Bank The Baptist’s Cry (Coffin; tr. Chandler; Does Coffin “count” as Catholic in view of the fact that he was refused last rites and Christian burial? Whatever, Chandler was Anglican.)
    330 O Quickly Come, Dread Judge Of All (Lawrence Tuttiett)
    245 O Sacred Head, Surrounded (tr. Henry W. Baker)
    280 O Thou, Who At Thy Eucharist Didst Pray (Turton)
    257 O Trinity Of Blessed Light (St. Ambrose; tr. Neale)
    288 O With Thy Benediction (Vincent Coles, Anglican)
    216 Praise, My Soul, The King Of Heaven (Lyte)
    205 Praise To The Lord, The Almighty
    296 Sanctify Me Wholly (tr. Thomas I. Ball, Anglican)
    228 Savior Of The Nations Come (tr. by William M. Reynolds, Episcopal priest, USA)
    219 Sing Praise To God, Who Reigns Above (tr. Frances Cox)
    237 Songs Of Thankfulness And Praise (Wordsworth)
    351 Sweet The Moments, Rich In Blessing (Allen; tr. Shirley)
    358 The Eternal Gates Lift Up Their Heads (Cecil Alexander)
    243 The Glory Of These Forty Days (tr. M. Bell)
    368 The God Whom Earth And Sea and Sky (tr. Neale)
    253 The Head Once Crowned With Thorns (Kelly)
    294 The Heavenly Word, Proceeding Forth (Verbum Supernum Prodiens; tr. by Neale, final 2 stanzas, Caswall)
    255 The Holy Spirit Was Outpoured (Hilary of Poitier; tr. Neale)
    269 The King Of Love My Shepherd Is (Henry W. Baker)
    213 Thy Hand, O God, Has Guided (Plumptre, Anglican)
    338 What Child Is This? (Dix)
    341 When I Survey The Wondrous Cross (Watts)
    354 Ye Sons And Daughters Of The King (tr. Neale)

    239 Blest Author Of This Earthly Frame (Sedulius; tr. by ?)
    246 Christ, The Lord, Is Risen Today (tr. Jane Leeson; was she Catholic?)
    295 Christ The Word To Earth Descended (Verbum Supernum Prodiens; tr. by ?)
    370 Concordi Laetitia / Sounds Of Joy (Is this from the New Saint Basil Hymnal?)
    367 Maiden, Yet A Mother (Dante; tr. by ?)
    334 O Christ, The Ransomer Of Man (?)
    258 O Glorious Maid, Exalted Far (?)
    357 O Thou, The Heavens’ Eternal King (tr. by Neale?)
    274 Sing, My Tongue, The Mystery Holy (tr. by ?)
    210 Sing Praise To God In Heaven Above (?)
    222 Triumphantly Doth Christ Unfurl (Is this from the New Saint Basil Hymnal?)
    250 Ye Choirs of New Jerusalem (?)

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  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    It certainly appears that choosing only public domain texts and tunes, so as to avoid paying royalties to hymn writers, translators, composers, and harmonizers, was a principle, perhaps the one above all others, which guided the selection of these texts and tunes. If so, it also appears that the editors may have missed the mark since, by my count, they included four texts and two tunes still under copyright.

    Be that as it may, my purpose in researching the provenance of the hymnody in V2H is – let me be clear - not to criticize CC Watershed for including so many texts written by or translated by non-Catholics. Rather my intention is to show that the standard proposed for a “Catholic hymnal,” namely that the texts be written by or translated by Catholics is contradicted by the fact that the texts sung by English-speaking Catholics for well over a century do not reflect that narrow standard. As Mark Thompson wrote:
    I don't think it makes a whit of difference whether a hymn was written by a Catholic, a Protestant, a computer algorithm, or a monkey chained to a typewriter. Frankly, they ought to be evaluated as submissions to most major journals are: blindly.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    It certainly appears that choosing only public domain texts and tunes, so as to avoid paying royalties to hymn writers, translators, composers, and harmonizers, was a principle, perhaps the one above all others, which guided the selection of these texts and tunes.


    I think it was more a thought process like, "nothing recently written is any good."

    Or, to put it another way...
    image
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    More seriously-

    I agree with Fr. RK on principle. I also agree with the the notion that Catholics SHOULD be better at writing texts for Catholic liturgy.

    I am of the opinion that the under representation of Catholic writers in Catholic hymnals is a symptom of several factors completely unrelated to the editorial philosophy of any particular hymnal. Namely:
    1. Prior to the V2, there was little need for Catholics to be writing English hymn texts, other than for devotional (non-liturgical or para-liturgical) purposes.
    2. Since V2, the state of vernacular liturgy has been so weirdly wild that The Church has not been much of an incubator for good new work.
    3. In places where music was being taken seriously, the need for new texts was likely not felt.
    4. Generally speaking, The Church has stopped producing artists and poets in most disciplines. (see point 2). This is not absolutely true, but it is true enough that there are really fewer serious hymn text writers ought there than there ought to be. (Along with fewer organists, fewer sculptors, fewer vestment makers...). We are seeing a change on this front, but it is not yet in full swing.

    (I could probably go on....)

    Point is: I think it is unlikely that one could produce a practical and usable HYMNAL for English-speaking Catholic liturgy where the overwhelming majority of texts come from strictly Roman Catholic sources.
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  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Good points, Adam.

    And please, kind readers, you may find that I mis-coded a few "non-Catholic" entries on the long list. E.g., Fr. Faber had come into the full communion of the Catholic Church three years before he penned "Faith of Our Fathers." Sorry, for that erratum (and perhaps others).
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    (In case you haven't used it yet, there is an "edit" link for each post. With it you can re-open a published post for editing.)
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    The principle that hymn texts should be judged on their own merits, without consideration of the religious convictions of the author (or even if they are human or not!) sounds like a good, objective standard. My concern is not so much that non-Catholics will inculcate particular ideas detrimental to the Catholic faith - e.g. that Christ is not really present in the Eucharist, or the pope is not infallible - though in some instances this is a legitimate concern.

    Rather, it's the "ethos" that is being communicated by the hymn texts. As a number of commenters have mentioned on the other thread about Worship IV, few people in the pew ponder the texts they sing in church very deeply. Even if a hymn contained overt heresy, they may not notice it. Yet even without a particular theological problem, the emphasis can be off. It is more the "worldview" embodied in the text rather than particular theological points that is often what is taken in, especially with repeated use. In this connection, it seems that the religious convictions of the writer, given that they inform the worldview of the text, would be a legitimate consideration.

    One should also consider the net effect of the hymns taken as a collection. To put it rather crudely, if the bulk of the hymns in a book are in terms of "me and God," or oppose grace to works, or never mention the saints, the hymnal is seriously off balance as far its use by Catholics is concerned. The Catholic ethos is very much "both/and": faith and works, nature and grace, Christ and his Church. Emphasizing one aspect of a dogma too much can be as detrimental as denying it altogether.

    I am making no final judgment about Worship IV here - I have not seen the book. But I take the concern about the number of non-Catholic hymn writers in the book to be something along these lines. There does not have to be any sinister agenda at work for the collection to be "off" in terms of reflecting a full Catholic ethos.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    The Anglicans were masters of English hymnody. Many of those hymns listed are still sung, but I wonder why some, like "Ah Holy Jesus" have disappeared from modern hymnals. I think the VII is a bit limited when trying to cover an entire church year, but the hymns are, for the most part, good hymns. As for them being Anglican, my Byzantine sensibilities are not in the least offended. I have little personal attachment to things Latin, other than working for them. It's too bad the Latins didn't look to the Anglicans as a model for English music and liturgy after Vatican II.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    r_e:
    I would suggest that most of the worst "me and God" or "community-centred eucharistic celebration" texts were written by Catholics officially in good standing. The tendency of Mainline Liberals to write the same seems to be primarily in imitation of the the wave of grooviness among their Roman brothers and sisters.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Adam you have a point. As a recently retired teacher of middle-school students, I can see a few things similar between some "groovy" Catholic writers, liturgists, musicians, and middle-schoolers. They only think they are cool - they're not, to any objective observer. As one of my visiting students, now in high school, said when visiting a middle school dance, "Were we that lame?" I answered, "Yes!"
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    But r_e and others are right. General worldview and point of focus is an issue. Especially because it can be an insidious, unnoticeable phenomenon.

    For example-
    I try to be as fastidious as possible to not let heresy of any sort sneak into my hymn texts (unless, you know, that's the sort of text I'm writing- which is very seldom). Given that some of the things I think aren't exactly orthodox, I give special attention to this point, to the best of my ability.

    Nevertheless, as Kathy pointed out, I totally missed the boat in the first draft of my Ascension hymn, writing about the continued presence of Jesus in terms of the gathered community rather than the more appropriate reference to the Real Presence of the Blessed Sacrament. (And of all the things I DON'T disagree on, the Real Presence in the Blessed Sacrament is pretty high on my "I absolutely believe that with my whole heart and soul" list. So go figure.) Thankfully, I was able to rework the verse in question.

    Good intentions are important. But good intentions also require vigilance and hard work.

    Of course- I would be very sad if someone rejected one of my texts for reasons other than its own content, such as for reasons having to do with my beliefs and opinions not expressed therein. Particularly since I consider my hymn text writing to be a part of my own struggle to dig into orthodoxy, for the improvement of my own beliefs and opinions.
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  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    The principle that hymn texts should be judged on their own merits, without consideration of the religious convictions of the author (or even if they are human or not!) sounds like a good, objective standard. My concern is not so much that non-Catholics will inculcate particular ideas detrimental to the Catholic faith - e.g. that Christ is not really present in the Eucharist, or the pope is not infallible - though in some instances this is a legitimate concern.

    Rather, it's the "ethos" that is being communicated by the hymn texts.

    This would be an important concern, if you had to pick a hundred hymns and only had ten minutes to do it. Sure: you would gamble that hymns by Catholics are probably better. But when you have unlimited time and can give as much individualized consideration to each hymn as necessary, there's no need to employ such a proxy.


    One should also consider the net effect of the hymns taken as a collection. To put it rather crudely, if the bulk of the hymns in a book are in terms of "me and God," or oppose grace to works, or never mention the saints, the hymnal is seriously off balance as far its use by Catholics is concerned. The Catholic ethos is very much "both/and": faith and works, nature and grace, Christ and his Church. Emphasizing one aspect of a dogma too much can be as detrimental as denying it altogether.

    This is a very important point. While it's true -- to take one example -- that what we do at the Eucharist is to gather around the Table of the Lord and share the Bread of Life, if that's 95% of what people hear about what Mass is, one could hardly blame them for not knowing anything about the deeper sacrificial theology of the Mass. This sort of distortion can be intentional, or they can be quite inadvertent. Certainly the compilers of any Catholic hymnal, and more importantly the programmers of music at any Catholic parish, ought to avoid it fiercely.
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  • Ted
    Posts: 202
    I am not certain you should be including non-Catholic translators in your assessment. Certainly they may have a worldview that could influence their translations, but even Catholic authors have to be corrected sometimes. Surely a high Anglican churchman like J. M. Neale who was treated very badly for suspicions of being a Vatican collaborator was more Catholic than not a few hymn writers that claim to be Catholic today.

    But I am more concerned about the subject matter of the hymns. That is where worldviews matter a lot. I have in front of me the Pius X Hymnal (1953) as I type, and I am looking at the titles of the hymns. These are mostly hymns of praise to God, not about us, or community, or social justice, or other hazy subjects. God is the first focus, including the Eucharist. There are hymns from nearly all centuries, and even Byzantine hymns. They are authored by Catholics, if you call pre 1054 Christians Catholics. Yes many are in Latin which would freak out many older Americans today, but these could be translated. That is definitely a Catholic hymnal.

    I think what bugs a lot of folks here is that non-Catholic hymns replace the words of Scripture at Mass, i. e. the Propers, at least it does me.
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  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • Ben_WhitworthBen_Whitworth
    Posts: 90
    Yes, Jane Leeson was a Catholic; so was the translator of "Maiden, Yet a Mother": Fr Ronnie Knox.

    I know this is not a contribution to the interesting conversation developing here, but being pedantic about hymns is what I do.
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Nice to see your avatar, Ben.
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    Dear MHI (the initials seem vaguely familiar),

    To your second point, this 1936 Hymnal is not from 1912, but the contents is very conveniently arranged by origin. Taking "well over a century" more literally, it is striking how much overlap there is in 16c German Catholic hymnals too. I once heard Christoph Wolff remark that the Ach Gott von Himmel sieh darein tune in the second Magic Flute finale would have struck the Catholic Viennese audience as just as exotic as the hieroglyphs of the set, but I have my doubts.
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I'm leafing through The Westminster Hymnal (1912) and finding over and over: Caswall, Faber, Caswall, Faber; a few times Newman, Dryden, Stansfield; a few hymns by religious sisters, with no surnames indicated: sometimes only their initials. As far as I can tell, nothing adopted from Protestant authors.
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  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • veromaryveromary
    Posts: 160
    A Treasury of Catholic Song (1915) from Maryland claims:
    Catholic sources alone have been drawn on for words of this collection. From first to last every hymn presented is of undoubted Catholic authorship. ...
    Tunes in this book, taken en masse, are likewise from Composers who glorified in Catholic name ... Finally, if in a few instances musical work known to be of other than Catholics be found herein, the marked excellence and devotional value of the tunes is thought to afford warrant in Christian Charity for their use.. if authority or sound criticism so bid, they may be omitted from future editions of this work.

    Fr Sidney Hurlbut
    available printed here and pdf here.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    To get back to Fr. Krisman's post at the top: does he (or does anyone) know how many of the V2H hymns were authored by non-Catholics (leaving the translators aside for now)?

    I got the impression from the thread about Worship IV that the proportion was about one-third for that book. It would be interesting if V2H might have a comparable or higher proportion of hymns adopted from non-Catholic sources.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    how many of the V2H hymns were authored by non-Catholics (leaving the translators aside for now)?


    It should not be too difficult to determine. I identified most of the translators. And most of the translators were translating (Catholic) Latin hymns. However people like Catherine Winkworth may have been translating the hymns of non-Catholics.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Another important point to keep in mind: there's a big difference between authors and translators. One need not be Catholic to faithfully translate a latin text, portraying the same idea as the original while staying within the metric. Authoring a new text is a whole other animal.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    We should remember that pre-conciliar law required the local bishop to approve the music used at Low Mass. My understanding is that some dioceses approved some hymnals and others approved others.

    The use of Protestant hymns in Catholic worship was initially seen as anathema in Britain after the establishment of the Archdiocese of Westminster, but was more tolerated in the U.S. The St. Mark's Hymnal (1910), a parochial effort led by a convert from Protestantism, drew from a number of non-Catholic sources, although the online version does not include an Imprimatur. St. Gregory (1920) included several, including one attributed to "Dr. Neale" (middle name not mentioned). The Baltimore Manual (1888?) had several of Neale's translations, as did Fr. Police's transatlantic Parochial Hymn Book (1880's). Even St. Basil's (1918) included some Protestant greats such as Nearer, my God, to Thee. But the vast majority of hymns in the most popular Catholic hymnals of the early 20th Century were pure-Catholic (Catholic author, Catholic translator, Catholic bishop giving an imprimatur, even in some cases IIRC the choice of a "Catholic tune"). This started to change in the 1940's and 1950's.

    I wonder what the level of toleration was toward Protestant hymns in other countries such as Germany.
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  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Another important point to keep in mind: there's a big difference between authors and translators. One need not be Catholic to faithfully translate a latin text, portraying the same idea as the original while staying within the metric. Authoring a new text is a whole other animal.


    Ben, authoring and translating are indeed different animals. But I think you seriously underestimate how difficult it is to "faithfully translate a latin text, portraying the same idea as the original while staying within the metric." There are lots of doctrinal pitfalls.
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    But I think you seriously underestimate how difficult it is to "faithfully translate a latin text, portraying the same idea as the original while staying within the metric."

    It's hard, but not impossible.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I know this one writer who manages to do it with some regularity.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Neale
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Caswall
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Pluth
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    And yes, Caswall is amazing at it.
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Aww, thanks.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Ben, authoring and translating are indeed different animals. But I think you seriously underestimate how difficult it is to "faithfully translate a latin text, portraying the same idea as the original while staying within the metric." There are lots of doctrinal pitfalls.


    Fair enough.
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  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Non-Catholic translations of Catholic hymns... like "Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland"?
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Some conservative stats I have determined (not very scientifically) on the Vatican II Hymnal:

    -about 60% of the hymns DEFINITELY come from Catholic sources
    -about 40% come from non-Catholic authors or translators

    The vast majority of the latter are Anglican clergymen. Many (maybe even most?) were translating Catholic hymns from Latin. I did not have time to parse that much out. But it was definitely clear that if I did have the time, the "Catholic" percentage would have grown quite significantly.

    Some other interesting facts:
    -more than 45 hymns ultimately come from anonymous medieval (or earlier) Catholic hymns
    -there were 3 anonymous texts for which I could not determine the whether the author was Catholic
    -there are 48 non-Catholic individuals who contributed texts to the hymnal
    -in addition to the authors of the 45 anonymous Catholic hymns mentioned above, there are about 38 more Catholic contributors
    -as far as I can tell, the "youngest" text contributor died in 1981, which, incidentally, was the year Jeff Ostrowski was born
    -72 individuals contributed to only 1 text each in the hymnal
    -about two dozen individuals contributed to more than one text
    -7 hymns are ultimately from Thomas Aquinas, including 5 that come (in various ways) from "Pange lingua"
    -other top contributors (besides anonymous medieval hymn-writers) were Charles Wesley (5) and Isaac Watts (4)
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    The fact is that the Anglicans were not too far removed from the Catholic Church in many areas of liturgy and piety until the 20th century, and they gathered English Hymns. Ironically, they were originally against hymns and often just sang metrical psalms after the initial schism.

    Of course, a number of good hymns were written by people involved with the Oxford Movement, which were Anglicans seeking to return to their roots, ultimately ending in many of them crossing the Tiber.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    Involvement in the Oxford movement is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, it indicates an inclination to Christian tradition. On the other hand, it would have been hard for an Anglo-Catholic to avoid the Roman question amid personal encounters with the Catholic saints of the time.

    Those who chose to be "left behind" also faced at times enormous pressures from Anglican authorities and even popular mobs. This is discussed in some detail here (p. 280, +/-).

    Edit: Tried to fix link.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 944
    I think PoJo is still out of town for his brother's diaconate ordination, so he isn't around to chime in.

    I think the VII is a bit limited when trying to cover an entire church year, but the hymns are, for the most part, good hymns.


    I actually think this was deliberate. The VII Hymnal is making an effort to restore the propers to the Mass, and so included much more in the way of that content instead of all hymnody. If you're using the book just for hymns, it's a bad fit for any parish.

    It's too bad the Latins didn't look to the Anglicans as a model for English music and liturgy after Vatican II.


    Yes! I've been saying this for a while now. Right after Vatican II, we Americans should have gone straight to the Anglicans and asked, "How have you been doing this for the last 400 years?" Most of the theology is consistent with Catholic worship, and maybe we could have retained the tradition of using primarily psalmody at Mass.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I think PoJo is still out of town


    It's catching on! YES!
    (May God and PoJo forgive me....)
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Yes! I've been saying this for a while now. Right after Vatican II, we Americans should have gone straight to the Anglicans and asked, "How have you been doing this for the last 400 years?" Most of the theology is consistent with Catholic worship, and maybe we could have retained the tradition of using primarily psalmody at Mass.


    If I had my druthers, The English Missal (with whatever changes are required) would be approved for use.
    Thanked by 2Salieri ScottKChicago
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Greetings! A comment about the Vatican II Hymnal was recently brought to my attention by a friend:

    It certainly appears that choosing only public domain texts and tunes, so as to avoid paying royalties to hymn writers, translators, composers, and harmonizers, was a principle, perhaps the one above all others, which guided the selection of these texts and tunes.

    Just for the record, this is totally wrong. The idea was to find quality texts and quality melodies that congregations knew. The members on this forum were so amazing. They all helped in an effort to find hymns that American Catholics were familiar with. This was not an easy task, because of the deplorable damage that has been done to Catholics in the pews over the last 40 years.

    The Edmund Campion Hymnal is different. It includes many "lesser known" hymn texts and tunes, including some unbelievably amazing new melodies by contemporary composers.

    My strong advice: don't fret so much about when the composer lived or died. Worry about the quality of the music. Sadly, much of the music used in Catholic Churches could best be described as "goofy, uninspired, and unworthy of the house of God." My degree is in music theory, and I can attest to the fact that many "contemporary" composers are not producing anything of value.

    This video gives an "overview" of what we were trying to do:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tnoBlJsGjE
    Thanked by 5Adam Wood ronkrisman francis jpal CHGiffen
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