The Ubiquitous Time Commitment Question
  • As I seem to be on a roll with these kinds of questions, permit me to pose yet another one; one I'm sure we've all had to answer.

    I'm trying (for a third time in as many years) to answer the plea and cry for a children's choir. Now, in the past I tried to pattern it along the lines of the RSCM, that is, multiple rehearsals per week, either a first and second arrival to rehearsal with an overlap of a period where all were present, or a 4-times per week availability with a requirement of attending 2 of the 4. Neither worked, the typical excuses were, "it's too rigorous . . . they've got too many other commitments . . . my son/daughter can't be there every week because of homework/dance/gymnastics/hockey/swimming/quiz bowl/croquet practice . . . " and on it goes. In response, I've tried, again twice before and will again, to have a once-per-week, one-hour rehearsal and schedule the choir to only sing for around 6 or 7 Masses throughout the program year. In the last two years, nobody signed up, again because the day and time of the rehearsal conflicted with the litany of other commitments the kids have made.

    Today, I had a volunteer (cantor) who also works in the parish office tell another staff member with girls who like to sing that "she'll do what she can to make a place for them at one of the Masses" when she cantors. There was no discussion about appropriate rehearsals, etc. I stepped in and said, "you know, really we ought to have a more organized rehearsal with a group of singers for any given Mass, rather than just relying on the 30-minutes of warm-up before hand." The mother said, "well, my girls love to sing, but they can't commit to a rehearsal one hour per week because they have _________." The other volunteer, who seems to have a desire to control the way I structure the music program, said to me, "you know, you gotta bring them in and hook them, then start to lead them to the more structured rehearsal arrangement you'd like."

    I had no response. How I'd like to respond is: What would you think of a coach who would say, "let's have your son or daughter just come to the games and kick the ball around. The other team mates and their parents and the folks in the stands watching won't mind. Your son/daughter can just kind of learn the ropes, rules and techniques as they go, then we'll see if they're interested in attending the workouts and practices." Nobody would want to play on the team because there would be no team effort, it would be all about what each individual member feels like doing.

    Is this just a typical suburbanite attitude? I want to be responsive, but I also want to have the ability to actually direct the music program, rather than letting it be a free-for-all.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Well, yes, David, I believe it is a typical suburbanite attitude. Having gone through all this with a couple of kids myself, I have sympathy for the situation. For better or worse, the expectation is that we will schedule our kids to the max, which then results in all kinds of conflicts.

    With my schola, the only time I've been able to schedule for practice is on Sunday morning, 11:00-12:00, after Mass. For kids it's even more difficult.

    Here's my observation: Neither the kids nor parents really perceive the choir as a team. They don't see the interdependencies. When someone doesn't show up, they don't perceive much of a hole - until you get down to 2 or 3 singers, when it becomes painful.

    What might make it feel more like a team? Well, sports teams have uniforms which combine both the common (team name, colors) with personalized (name and number). You do things like cheer together and maybe have a slogan.

    In other contexts, teams work when they have a common shared goal (not just a leader, but an actual purpose) and designated roles. I've noticed many times that participants who are given a specific role, no matter how seemingly trivial, are more likely to be engaged and show up on a regular basis.

    I'd encourage you to look at this as a matter of attracting people to the group (see previous discussion) rather than putting in place rules which will force compliance. I believe that, in the end, the former is much more powerful.

    But on the other side, you might also think how you can encourage the kind of peer pressure which will cause the kids to think twice about missing practice. That's a pretty big deal.
  • I will not profess a great success at creating a children's choir in suburbia. I have found that including them at Mass on Sunday EVERY Sunday and welcoming them whether they have been to rehearsal or not seems to make them want to come to rehearsal. At the Mass they sing with the adult choir on the Latin mass parts...and memorize them fast and put the adults to shame, and do well on the hymns. I have older ones sponsor younger ones adn help them follow the words in the hymnal. We are talking 1st through 6th graders, so the repeated Mass parts are easy for them to learn, hymns harder because of reading, but encouraging them seems to work.

    I got an Episcopal church to donate some white albs with tunic/like deep red things....makes the kids look good and they feel good about their participation.

    Their behavior was...distracting...for awhile....including leaving to visit their parents at will. Adults in the choir with children were not pleased...Ellen and I don't have kids, so this stuff does not seem to bother me as much, so I ignored it and it went away.

    Getting some of the "popular" kids in the choir is said to pull others in. I don't know if that is true, but having parents who WANT their kids involved..that's a winner. And of all places to find that, check out the home-schoolers....they can be the backbone of a children's choir with great support from the parents...and a willingness from the parents to get them there and help in any way you need.

    And in dealing wtih home-schooled kids, be aware that they WILL surprise you with very adult attitudes towards learning and study....

    Like I said, I have not had great success, but I do enjoy the progress they have made.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I wish I had an answer for this one. It's undoubtedly my largest disappointment that I couldn't get more than one set of parents to volunteer their child to the choir. Now I'm just sour on parenting altogether, and I'll probably die a bitter childless old man due to one attempt at forming a children's choir. Not that adult choirs are much better, of course!

    The only advice ever given to me on this was "never try to grow a program".
  • There is no answer for this one except a pastor who puts direct pressure on parents. They should do this.

    In the South--this is really entirely true--parents are pleased to reserve the ENTIRE SPRING for baseball for their kids of any age. This means any night, every night, any and every Saturday or Sunday--every single non-school hour is given up. Coaches don't have regular schedules in advance. they just assume that the kids will come and that the parents will drive them, no matter when or where. I'm not exaggerating. And they parents are happy to comply. This is three full months of scheduling nothing else so that practice and games can be anytime, anywhere.

    But a choir? Forget it. In fact, you can forget everything else. All that matters in life is hitting a ball with a stick.

    I find this beyond belief. I'm not the despairing type but when I think about our culture, this fact depresses more than any other. In fact, it just disgusts me.
  • WGS
    Posts: 297
    Over the years, I've dreamed of the confessor who would say "and for your penance, join the choir". That might be a cross to bear for the choir director, and who ever heard of penance, but encouragement from the pastor does help. And I don't mean announcements from the pulpit or in the bulletin. I'm talking about personal contacts.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    All of these answers, (except Gavin's,) mirror my experience.
    In an area that is heavily Catholic yet the diocese belongs to a league that schedules high school games on Sunday mornings, sports cannot be fought.
    For some the robes are an incentive, for others a disincentive.
    My greatest success came because I was pressured into doing a children's chorus to sing with the symphony and some of that work bled over into Church.
    Unfortunately it also reinforced the "performance mentality" that so many parents have and which ingrains itself in their little darlings.

    I am pretty flexible about rehearsal, (some would say "lax,") and it paid off.
    I also did the staggered, over-lap thing when needed, (the week of volly ball play-offs, f'rinstance.)
    The rules:
    1.The importance of cookies cannot be over stated.
    That's the rules.

    And finally , CHALLENGE then! The more difficult the music, the more they will surprise and delight you. (Oh, IME kids loved difficult Gregorian chants with REPERCUSSIONS, and sqaure notes. It's an esoteric skill and knowledge they can hold over geezers and other kids. Gnosticism has its attraction...)

    Save the Liturgy, Save the World
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    "Gnosticism has its attraction...." LOL!
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Apropos of Jeffrey's comment re hitting balls with sticks, the same could be said of hitting strings with hammers or rubbing two strings together. But I hear your point.
  • Well, I'll defend the attraction of playing baseball. I still do, even at my advanced age. As for children's choirs, my experience is not a direct one -- I am wholly unqualified to teach children to sing -- but the children's choir directors who served with me had HUGE groups (40 or more). These were school groups mostly, but they were ostensibly parish ensembles. The directors were the music teachers at the school and the music was, for the most part, not something I'd want my kids (when the Lord grants them to us) singing.
  • I'm not really against baseball, but I draw attention to this phenom--parents reserving ALL non-school time to issue--as a notable point in light of the constant claim that there is no time at all for choir.
  • The point is parents balk at a one-hour rehearsal per week for a program like choir where the kids will develop a whole host of skills as well as develop a deep mastery of music and a better appreciation, nay respect and reverence, for the Mass. They think it's valid for them to argue about it with the music director, delivering themselves of their practical advice as to how the program could be better run. Yet, if their child's baseball (or whatever sport, fill in the blank) coach says the team trains and practices three times a week, and if a child misses a certain number of practices they'll be benched or taken off the team, the parents wouldn't think twice of arguing. At least, that's my impression.

    How can anyone build an effective program that will last if this it the prevailing attitude?
  • David - Your frustration is understandable, but there are successful models out there for you to follow. Have you physically visited and spoken to founders, directors, parents and participants of the Golden Gate Boys Choir or Madeleine Choir School or Boston Archdiocesan Choir School? They have all built long-lasting music progams for children. They are all more than willing to share.

    Based on your posts over the last few weeks, I might suggest a few things based on my experience working with my two boys over the years:

    1) Do not even attempt to compete with athletics. You will lose. Either schedule around them, or incorporate them into your program, or acknowledge that your pool of singing candidates will be very very small. It's a fact of modern life.

    2) Lighten up. You seem to be intent on an "all chant all the time" approach which will be very off putting to kids, parents, and in most cases the clergy as well. It's fine to introduce chant as one aspect of music, but only one. Education takes a person from the known to the unknown. Think Sound of Music ... "so do la fa mi do re". It doesn't mean anything! Bite your tongue and do some "happy" music as well as the traditional music generally perceived today as solemn/somber.

    3) Take your time. Children's choir programs will take years to take wing, but may well be worth the wait. Work with your school (if there is one) and the youth education program to build interest and a "pipeline" for candidates. If you start with 2nd/3rd graders you have the building blocks for a serious program 4 or 5 years out. (You also get them involved before they are TOO caught up in sports.)

    4) Somebody recently mentioned the need for cookies. Absolutely. As much for the parents as for the kids. So get some choir moms and dads to provide refreshments just like they do for Little League.

    5) Toss in a dose of humility. I believe in one of your recent posts (or perhaps I'm confusing you with another) you mentioned that it has reached the point where some parents were openly asking for a different music director who would be more responsive to their wishes. That's a disturbing note that there is already some level of alienation. Be sure to confirm the support of your pastor before embarking on the adventure, but be willing to respond positively with compromises -- not surrenders!

    Good luck. And do keep us informed here of the steps you take. Perhaps we will be treated to an implementation scheme that can be repeated.
  • priorstf,

    Thank you for your helpful comments. Actually, I was thinking of taking some professional time to go visit Vincent Edwards at St. Paul's on the Green in Norwalk, CT. Although it's an Episcopal program, Edwards is an absolutely brilliant recruiter. I'd also like to check out the Madeleine school.

    Regarding two of your comments: 1) For the record, I'm not all chant all the time. I simply have no interest in training boys and girls how to sing using inferior music. I'm fully aware of the music they're being exposed to in our own school music program, even for the school Masses, and it's awful. I'm not sure that the kids are getting much better stuff in the public schools. Nevertheless, if we recognize that much of the music of the Catholic church today is weak, poorly-crafted and of dubious theology, why would I want to take time treating it otherwise by teaching it when there's so much more music out there that kids love to sing? (They loved Malcolm Archer's setting of "My Song is Love Unknown", for instance. To be sure, if they're to sing for Masses, until our music changes, they'll have to sing ditties, but is that what I want to sell my program on?

    Also, the one mother who made the remark about bringing in someone else is on a campaign to make David Haas and his Music Ministry Alive program the quintessential model for music with young children and youth. Perhaps I'm on a culture war battlefield in this regard. Anyways, she's quite happy now . . . her daughters are singing in our contemporary ensemble, and they're performing the latest Christian contemporary rock charts.

    Meanwhile, another mother whose daughter was actively playing flute for us on Saturdays has moved the whole family to one of the most orthodox parishes in the archdiocese. Why? She could no longer expose her children to the weak theology and questionable teaching of the formation staff. Their music reflects their orthodoxy, by the way.

    All in all, perhaps I should rethink this. I'd rather have a very small, stable group of kids singing good music well, than judge the "success" of my program on sheer numbers and popularity. It's the stability part that's hard, not the numbers.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    I gather you have 'Parish' (i.e. fee-paying) schools in the U.S. If you have a sympathetic parish, you may wish to consider a campaign to establish music scholarships, as a means of providing a dedicated core of singers, the desirable ethos and a motive for parental encouragement.

    Oops - can't write any more, as the Last Night of the Proms is on the telly, and they're about to sing the Beethoven Choral Fantasia (they being the BBC Symphony Chorus and BBC Singers, a good number of whom doubtless benefited from music scholarships ...)
  • Oooo, the Proms!

    I happened to be in London in August of 2004. I was on tour with a choir singing in residence at Westminster Abbey, and our rooms were in the Imperial College. (Our choirmaster's rooms overlooked the plaza of the Hall).

    We quickly ate our meals the night we arrived and ran over to wait in line for rush tickets. Dame Gillian Weir was the featured artist, playing the Saint Saens C Major Symphony.

    I can now tell the joke that paid 4 pounds to hear Gillian Weir play a C-major chord!