I think the problem is a bit deeper than organ vs. piano.

At some point pretty soon you're going to need to make a decision about whether peaceful, gainful employment is more or less important to you than the ideals of Roman Catholic Church Music.

bjford,

Welcome to the forum!

In times of difficulty, sadness, and despair, always remember the words of a great Church musician, who gently reminds his pupils that "the life of a Church musician is a life of sacrifice."

In other words, try not to lose face, even in the face of obstacles and difficulties.

Also, you might want to listen to the words of Dr. Mahrt who addresses issues like these on SBU, as well as the hour-long interview with Jeffrey Tucker on the SBU DVD.

Thank you all for your responses. Thank you especially Charles-- you have some excellent ideas that I will definitely start applying at the parish.

I would look forward to it, Charles!

Tell them that playing old hymns on the organ doesn't attract a licensing fee for copyright.

The first place I worked had a piano, but fortunately none of the pastors ever asked me to use it. I did use it once when the power on the organ went out, but that was just an emergency. None of them said "Hey, I like the piano, why don't you use it more?" I did have a cantor ask me why I didn't use the piano and I told her that I was hired to play the organ. That was that.

Now, the style of music that could be played is a different story. I've had a couple of pastors inform me that I need to be more diverse and use the modern trendy stuff. The first one asked because he liked all the schmaltz and there wasn't a thing I could do to change his mind. He was convinced that any musician who didn't like a bunch of the modern funeral type music was not taking his job as a "minister" seriously. In situations like that, there's not much that you, as the music director, can do if you wish to hold on to your job for long.

Another church I had a slightly similar situation, but it was different in that the priest, during the interview, actually agreed with my ideas, though looking back I don't know if he did so because he didn't know much about music and was just deferring to me or because he was just anxious to get someone new to replace the old MD. For awhile he let me do as I pleased, but eventually subtle whisperings in his ear by some other employees got to him and he started believing that music was a reason people were leaving the church, that the music wasn't familiar enough to the people (This is my parish of my entire life, I know better what they know, but he wouldn't believe me!). Again, once the pastor has his mind set on something, there is little that you can do to change his mind, so you either have to go with it or depart. Fortunately, in both cases, I could jump ship because there were other places to go, but now... I think I'm running out of places to run!

Think about your situation, too. If you have a family to support, packing up and leaving when you don't agree with the pastor may not be the best idea, even if you do have to play Eagle's Wings (for the record, the pastor I now work for agrees with me that that piece is theologically unsound). Of course, if your conscience absolutely tells you that you cannot work under these conditions, then do what you have to do, but I do wonder (not much!) if playing stuff like that is truly wrong in itself. Very poor taste? Yes. Theologically shallow? Yes. Makes your ears bleed? Yes, but you get some years off purgatory!

And finally, I like the idea of weaning people toward chant. The use of chant is one thing that a pastor cannot argue against (many will, but they shouldn't!), so by all means, wean them onto it. Not guaranteed to work, but who knows... the pastor may actually like it.

Best not go there. They may want 'em!

If they have an Electric Piano, switch to the organ sound just before mass starts so they'll be occupied whilst you are doing it right. :-P

Hartleymartin, the organ sound on the Roland sounds terrible. I did use it once, but never again.

Depending on the size of the parish (number of people... and thus budget), the size of the building, and the available talent, a good piano makes a fine accompaniment to congregational singing, and is vastly superior to any organ (and sometimes, organist) that can be had.

So, on the one hand, I'm a little tired of the "piano is never appropriate" refrain.

But, on the other hand: similar to the "all other things being equal" caveat in SC- the fact that some situations explicitly warrant deviation from the norm/ideal should not be taken as license to abandon it altogether in order to chase one's preferences.

(This is indicative of the larger issue in Catholic Music. Is it okay the sometimes propers are not used? Sure. In this particular instance, is it okay? Maybe. Is it reasonable that the vast majority of parishes have never heard a proper in their life? We clearly have a problem.)

I am a pianist that is an Organist wannabe. My parish has a synthesizing keyboard, that, while not an organ by any stretch of the imagination, does have some good organ settings that I use quite often. We are in the process of building a new church and we've been promised an organ. I cannot wait and will begin lessons before long in anticipation of our move-in. To me, nothing spells Catholic more beautifully than chanted music and/or organ sounds.

Many years ago, the pastor said that the church would get a new pipe organ after some remodeling. He meant it. The bishop said no even though the parish had the means to get one.

So, yeah... don't count on one.

I glanced at the original post (and my frankly brilliant response). I might answer differently now:

How do you argue against your boss for organ over piano?

Answer: You don't. Don't argue with the boss. Respectfully and clearly give your perspective why one is better, but then DROP IT and follow orders.

If you don't like the orders, work somewhere where you do.

ditto

Adam? What?

More suited for a bar.

Where do we stop? 21 people = must have organ? 19 people = roll the piano back in?

The piano is a very convincing instrument, able to create lovely sounds when played softly, but they are not sounds of the Catholic church.

The entire body of music of the Catholic church eschews accompaniment by rhythmic instruments. The melodic lines are rhythmic as the words determine the rhythm. The moment you insert a piano the rhythm comes from the percussive sounds of the piano. If you are unable to lead the singing of 20 or less people with an organ, the problem is the technique of the organist, not the instrument.

Francis, step up to the plate, I'm afraid that when I hit 4,000 my account will shut down forever!

^^^ LOL! (Be sure to start a new thread announcing the fact, so that we all can gain at least one additional post in congratulating you!)

When I hit 4k, I am taking a break to let Francis catch up and assume the lead postion.

Smaller congregations sing differently than larger ones. They sing better with piano accompaniment than with organ accompaniment. Either can be effectively used, but in many situations, which exist in the real world, the piano is the superior instrument.

As Adam stated, all of this is an exception to a plain rule. So I don't get the level of defensiveness exhibited by some in this thread, as though massed forces are seeking to replace fine organs with pianos.

"They sing better with piano accompaniment than with organ accompaniment."

No, they sing better with you playing the piano instead of with you playing the organ.

adam

there is no need to be defensive

the hammond is NOT an organ
its a synthesizer
so when you declare something about the organ and you are actually talking about the B3, well there is going to be a huge issue on this forum

i TOTALLY agree with you!

A hammond is for jazz and rock. nothing else. i'd take a piano over a hammond in a heartbeat for any liturgy.

The piano has never been part of the tradition of the Catholic church, nor mainline Protestant churches. Acceptance of the piano grows the further the church moves from liturgical worship.

The Organ is not pipes / digital / vacuum tubes.

It is sustained tone that is non-percussive, an instrument that moves wind and that achieves accent, not through increased volume, but through articulation, a breath of air, between notes.

An accordeon is preferable to a piano when playing at Catholic mass.

A Hammond organ sat prominently on the main floor of St. Patrick's cathedral, NYC for many ears. There was no pipe organ division down front. A Hammond organ can be set to provide fundamental pitch.

Many are not aware, I am sure, that finding a piano in a Catholic or almost all Protestant churches in the NE USA was a rare event and even so, many of them in Protestant churches were rolled, in played, and rolled back out to stay in the parish hall until a special occasion called for it.

The piano was prized for its ability to lead singing in rehearsals, but rehearsals ended up in the church where the organ then assumed it role of accompanying all the singing.

A choir that had to be accompanied on piano was considered to be second-rate, unable to carry the rhythm of the music in their song, needing a crutch to get by.

The piano is in the catholic church primarily because it is cheaper than an organ and most trained organists abandon the catholic church for all the reasons were are aware of, and that leaves pianists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBDGQNx-ybk

I guess I'll start the papier-mâché mix.

I regularly play for masses on this instrument:

http://www.sydneyorgan.com/Campion.html

8' Stopped Diapason
4' Wald Flute
8' Keraulophon

All Enclosed.

With the swell shut and only using the Stopped Diapason I quite readily accompany cantoring of Psalms.

Depending on how many people I have at mass I may only need to add either the 4' Flute or 8' Keraulophon (often alternating between Hymn verses). If a full congregation of about 70 is present I need all stops out.

Pianos are not better than organs for accompaniment, especially not for hymn singing. They are also incapable of the long sustained notes that one may desire for drones or pedal-point in music.

I say this having spent 8 years in a Piano Academy. Even a small electric organ properly set up with good speakers and sensible registration is better than a piano in every church situation. Even a harmonium is preferable!

Regarding the argument of organ vs. piano in a small church of limited means:

This problem was solved 150 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonium

The same size as an upright piano and a fraction of the price of a Clavinova or Roland if you watch estate auction listings.