We aren't the only ones to protest worshipper-centered hymns
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 1,517
    Ann Barnhardt, who has become infamous on the Internet for her, uh, zealous style, has just posted a bit on the power of music, and parts of it could have come from this forum, if we didn't have the etiquette we have. Unfortunately, her blog doesn't allow for searchable or individually linkable posts; this is what's on top now. Since it'll get knocked down soon enough, I'll quote the most relevant bit here:

    Finally, the insipid narcissim of "Contemporary Christian / Praise and Worship" music. If this is what you pump into your spirit, I can see why this is a nation of braindead, self-absorbed cowards. "You are worthy of MY praise." I'm sure God Almighty is very relieved to know that He is WORTHY of YOUR praise. Considering that He is perfect Goodness, Beauty, Truth and Love, and you are a miserable tick of a sinner, I'm glad to know the He is WORTHY of YOUR praise. Puke.

    Would that more people felt that strongly!
    Thanked by 1HeitorCaballero
  • how did obama get into this?
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,288
    i think the comparison is that the O is very much into praising himself
    Thanked by 1HeitorCaballero
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    It's rather far down the page now - a testament to the necessity of permanent links.

    I've never heard of this blog or blogger. I really, really, really wish I hadn't.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Regarding the Obama comment, though I strongly dislike bringing up politics here, I think we can discuss the man himself:

    Many of his early speeches are self-referential in the same way of much of Catholic worship. I often suspect "We Are The Ones We Have Been Waiting For" is a hymn from Worship III. Or "Yes We Can". It's all about talking about us, us, us to make ourselves feel good, because of what we can do, in a somewhat Hegelian manner. It's the same tactic of Ronald Reagan's 1980 campaign, though instead of exalting the individual and urging him to action, Obama's speeches exalt and motivate the movement. Again, very, very similar to Catholic hymnody: "we are here, we are going to do this, we are going to accomplish great things, because we are this or that."

    Politics or religion aside, it's an awful lot of talking about yourself.
  • A personal (and irrelevant), ad hominem insult makes her comment cheap and tawdry...and as it excludes approximately 50% of the population also injured by the scourge of praise music, renders the remark unusable, as will insult that half of the population who would have been in full agreement up until that moment of pointless (and un-Christian) snark.
    Thanked by 2Gavin Mairi
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,054
    "We are called, we are chosen..."

    How snarky was that comment though, really? There are different rhetorical styles, and the President's happens to be very heavy on the "we." It's not necessarily a bad way of speaking politically, nothing to be embarassed or offended about, I feel.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,085
    "We are old, we are flaky
    we can't stand one another
    and we castigate the other
    ancient hippies on our way..."
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    I have a feeling all involved will enjoy this:

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/uwFJv-kmaCc
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,085
    Oh yeah!
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    Dandy, Ben. I tell you one thing: If I'm looking to throw a good party down and am interested in an entertainment spectacle, I'm going to the secular world to fill my tank. The secular world does it up a whole lot better. Clownish "catholic" exercises such as the music in this video (and who hasn't heard such things in church?) is fun for nobody.
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 303
    I don't think starting with "I strongly dislike bringing up politics here" and then going on about a politician and then ending with "politics and religion aside" is a pattern we'd want to get into on this forum, would we?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Did I mention President Obama's politics? I mentioned him as a speaker. It is actually possible to talk about a politician without talking about politics, I should think. I'm talking about the art of rhetoric - any political commentary would be difficult to read into my post. Perhaps bringing up Hegel was a bit much, but it hasn't seemed to have sparked any controversy.

    I don't want a liberal to feel unwanted on this forum. I don't want a conservative to feel unwanted on this forum. And I don't think anyone will feel that their political views are being challenged if I point out where the anthropocentrism in Catholic hymnography, which is here bemoaned, has strong currents in the larger American culture as well.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,288
    let's be clear

    there IS no anthropocentrism in true Catholic hymnology, only in experimental hymn writing
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Francis, just gonna yank yer crank on a funny Monday morn:
    From-"The Gloria Hymnal" For Use in Church and School and Home, Basilian Fathers, Benzinger Bros. Press, 1933....first hymn I just opened to:

    #78 HAIL, JESUS, HAIL
    1. Hail, Jesus, hail who for my sake Sweet Blood from Mary's veins did take,
    And shed it all for me; and shed it all for me.
    O Blessed be my Saviour's Blood, My life, my light, my only good,
    My life, my light, my only good, To all eternity.
    2. To endless ages let us praise The Precious Blood,
    whose price could raise the world from wrath and sin; the world from wrath and sin.
    Whose streams our inward thirst appease And heal the sinners worst disease,
    And heal the sinners worst disease, If he but bathe therein.

    Yes, it's not "Sing a New Church into being" but....just sayin'.
    And I did get the "true" Catholic caveat.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,885
    >...strong currents in the larger American culture as well.

    Yes, Gavin, it seems to be down to us and the mad dogs now. But I have to get back to Englishing Qui manducat...
  • rjgrigaitisrjgrigaitis
    Posts: 43
    The YouTube video that Ben Yanke posted got me thinking. If you're interested in what I'm thinking, you can read it here: The Lost and the Lame.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,288
    that is sentimentalism all the way... perfect example of what i am talking about

    to prove my point, please give us the original latin text
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,288
    this problem has plagued the liturgy for centuries. i can cite problems back to 1500s
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    i find discussion of anyones moral character innappropriate to this forum.
  • JacobFlaherty
    Posts: 251
    Hey guys! We are a Catholic forum...and, while people of all political persuasions are allowed and most heartily welcome, can we not say that our current president, with all of his blatantly anti-Catholic actions as of late, opens him up to maybe just a little criticism? The one that began this was of the mildest kind...
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 303
    I really strongly object to discussion of political issues on this forum! It's a music forum.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    The above two comments from JIF and Francis are the kind of thing I was hoping to avoid. And to Don Roy, I have made no comment on anyone's moral character, nor had anyone before my past comments. I'm talking about rhetorical style and hymnography, and hoping people go along for the ride.

    Regarding "true Catholic hymnography", see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman

    I can name a Latin hymn all about "me": Anima Christi. "Me" is the most often used word in that text, and it's not even translated! Me, me, me, me, it's a praise chorus! In all seriousness, it's a fine text and I'm talking about a rather different sort of self-reference.
  • JacobFlaherty
    Posts: 251
    Scott and Gavin, never have I mentioned any politician before, but really, we can sing all the right music and follow all the correct GIRM rubrics and all papal encyclicals and church councils and if we act like we don't or shouldn't have a public voice in the world, even a voice that sometimes opposes the powers of the world, then this is nothing but a petting zoo and a strange, quirky hobby. I say that, with the understanding that I am also opposed to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Viva Christo Rey! (Not Viva Republicans or Viva Democrats). On to hymns...
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,288
    anthroprocentric asserts human beings are central

    both examples given above are not anthropocentric

    the first is however, sentimental (yes, a different problem)

    the Anima Christi is Christocentric

    psalm 23 has the same kind of language (we, i, me) but the language is pointing toward God, not self as the end of the means
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    ...we can sing all the right music and follow all the correct GIRM rubrics and all papal encyclicals and church councils and if we act like we don't or shouldn't have a public voice in the world, even a voice that sometimes opposes the powers of the world, then this is nothing but a petting zoo and a strange, quirky hobby... Viva Christo Rey! (Not Viva Republicans or Viva Democrats).

    Usually, my preferred position is to observe at a distance, from the safety of the bushes, but the sword of truth pierced me with this comment of yours, JIF. Thank you for this.
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 303
    I don't think that keeping politics out of a forum like this means we regard liturgy and music as detached from witness and mission. It simply means that this is the forum where the music itself is discussed. The rest can be dealt with in other forums.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    I don't think that keeping politics out of a forum like this means we regard liturgy and music as detached from witness and mission. It simply means that this is the forum where the music itself is discussed. The rest can be dealt with in other forums.

    I agree. There are plenty of other places to discuss politics, and while I am as fervent as anyone about current events, I would prefer that we keep them out of this arena. We have enough things to discuss in an animated fashion.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • JacobFlaherty
    Posts: 251
    I don't think that keeping politics out of a forum like this means we regard liturgy and music as detached from witness and mission. It simply means that this is the forum where the music itself is discussed. The rest can be dealt with in other forums.


    If our work in liturgy and music is attached to witness and mission, then we have nothing to fear by wandering into it on occasion. I've been a member of this forum for a year now, and up till now, have never seen politics referenced once. That's pretty remarkable. Perhaps the author of this post is simply tired of seeing our faith thrown under the bus. I feel similarly. I don't think we should act as thought police.

    Furthermore, if one person desired (wisely or not, I'll leave to your judgments) to introduce a political figure or political dialogue into something here, you are free to disregard it and ignore it or start a discussion on something else or talk about the subject here and pretend as if the political were not included. By reacting, the subject is given a ten-fold increase in power and the very thing you say you despise is given much, much more weight.
    Thanked by 2marajoy CHGiffen
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,288
    the minute you separate your faith from politics is the day the government will tell you how to live your faith

    hmmm.... gee... isn't this happening lately?!
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,576
    Internet Arguments!
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    you want this as a political blog fine, kiss me goodbye. since when does love of and service towards traditional liturgy means being a republican. as an obama supporter am i not welcome here?
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    don roy- NOBODY is even remotely suggesting that this ought to be a "political blog."
    It seems to me that some people are saying that since our current president is extremely anti-Catholic (most recently evidenced by the HHS mandate and everything surrounding it, such as the lack of interest in modifying it to appease US bishops,) and since this is mainly a Catholic music forum, that if someone mentions something that happens to include a derogatory remark about the above-mentioned current anti-religious-freedom president, that people who don't agree don't need to get all in a huff. They are either free to ignore it so as not to feed the fire, or calmly request that political references be minimized.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,576
    On the other hand, wouldn't it be just as easy for someone to NOT post their political opinions as it would be for someone to ignore them? I'd say that its actually even easier, as nobody needs to ignore what they do not see/hear.

    For example, my political views are easily ignored in this post, as I have not shared them. I could be anything from a communist a tea-party member, but you don't have to read that or exercise any self-censorship in not replying ... because I'm not going to share my political opinions on a forum about music.

    Is it too much to ask that other members do the same?


    This may be a CATHOLIC forum, but its topic is Catholic MUSIC and the rubrics of Catholic LITURGY.

    Unless Obama starts mandating reforms to the mass or requiring that we include a few tunes by Al Green every week, I don't see how anything regarding politicians needs to be discussed on this forum.

    It's rather Catholic to discuss humanitarian aide to third-world nations, but that's not something that belongs on this forum - so it also goes with politics.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    ryand-
    I don't disagree with you, but the point of this whole post was just a quote that was music-related that *happened* to have a political mention. The point of it did not intend to be political.
    I agree that we shouldn't deliberately talk about political things here, but I also think there is no reason to forbid them from ever being mentioned.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,576
    Anything can be mentioned, but should it be discussed?
    Thanked by 1ScottKChicago
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,576
    And, in a heated arena like politics, is it not a prudent notion to back-off or totally avoid anything that could become a catalyst for division ... particularly in a forum not-at-all related to the topic which people will inevitably argue about?
    Thanked by 1ScottKChicago
  • JacobFlaherty
    Posts: 251
    Ryand, and don roy,

    I said it before - this whole forum is not Viva Republican or Viva Democrat, it is Viva Christo Rey! It is about Christ the King, who established a Church, the Catholic Church. The Mass is the greatest prayer one can offer and is the prayer of the Church. Music is its humble servant.

    Also, as I said before, nobody here started criticizing Obama's handling of the Euro crisis or the North Koreans, nor did they laud him for Bin Laden or getting out of Iraq. I have no idea how anyone on here feels about these topics, and I am glad! I would venture that you don't know my voting history, either; whether I am a life-long Republican or a disenfranchised Democrat - I have not shared that with you.

    From the recent lawsuits brought on by Catholic institutions and dioceses against the current administration, the administration's abandonment of the Defense of Marriage Act, their support of same sex marriage and even their desire to have it be a chief principle in their party's 2012 platform!!!, their HHS department MANDATING that Catholics violate their consciences in forcing them to pay for artificial contraception and abortion on demand, to constantly referring to "Freedom of WORSHIP" and not the founders' "Freedom of RELIGION"... these are all uniquely and grossly troubling aspects of this Administration...and they can hardly be ignored.

    The Traditional Catholic Liturgy again is the PRAYER of the Catholic Church, the Church Christ Himself founded. If the Church is under attack, whether by Democrat, Republican, Atheist, Radical Homosexuals, Communists, (remember Archbishop Sheen), Green Party, anyone, we have a DUTY to try to correct it, through prayer, words and actions. What does Jesus Christ want? I give my taxes,my civil obedience and civil duties to Caesar (the government). I must give to God what is God's, and that is always a higher call. Neither George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton nor Barack Obama are my Savior. "I will call upon the name of the Lord..." (I Corinthians 1:2)

  • JacobFlaherty
    Posts: 251
    And if this is not the point of this forum, I concede it... But I don't think anyone here should have to divorce their love for traditional Catholic music and worship from their love for the reason it exists - the Church, with all that She holds dear! Nor should they have to flog themselves or any fellow board member who happens to utter a political reference when it is perfectly obvious that the political figure in question frequently embarrasses, undermines, and attacks the Church...the Church - the only reason this site exists.

    No Church - no home for the beauty we all care about and no reason to invest in what is essentially a hobby without meaning. A love for the Faith and the institution (the Church) which holds the Faith is essential because without them, this music has no life and no power. That's why we insist that it be sung in the Liturgy, the Mass itself, and not simply at some concert.

    I'm done with this topic, and I look forward to meeting all of you, whether or not we agree, in Salt Lake City in a month. Viva Christo Rey!
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Ryand, I was with you until, "I don't see how anything regarding politicians needs to be discussed on this forum."

    So we can't discuss Frederick the Great or Henry VIII (both composing monarchs of some import)?

    Frankly, I still don't see that there was anything wrong with my mention of the president. I was speaking of oratorical style, and the president is a noted orator. If people disagree with my opinion of his oratory, they can do so without resorting to some swivel-eyed partisan Hulkamania. I'm more than a little annoyed that what I thought to be an interesting topic was sidetracked by political commentary.

    I'd like to call attention to the fact that I haven't mentioned, even in passing, my (really quite strong) opinion of the president, his party, his policies, or the legislation he has championed. That was intentional - this forum isn't the place for that opinion.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,853
    Yeah, when are we gonna talk about Emperor Joseph II? His hostile Enlightenment-driven (pfui) attempts to regulate the Church fostered the Deutsche Messe, so they're a piece of music history.

    On the other hand, Gavin, it's not as if we lost a thread that developed much. It started with one post and sat idle for a month until somebody reacted against mentioning the name of the emperor disrespectfully. :-)
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    any political comment or aside has the capability of hurting someone unintentionally. comments about radicals homosexuals and other devients are hurtful to people yoiu dont even know. with all the challenges we face as traditional musicians in a church that is ambivilant at best, i would think that complicating it further by irrelivent comments and asides would be best avoided in a forum as badly needed as this one is. Lets not go the way of other blogs and contaminate it with rancor and pol;itical hatred.

  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    and let me remind my friend richard that we have a president not an emperor. please can we cut the hurtful hyperbole.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 1,517
    Guys, I'm sorry I started a riot here by not more thoroughly editing my quote (at the least). I didn't mean to start a political discussion, but clearly I did so. Those who want to know where I stand politically will have to find my blog, or friend me on Facebook or something.
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    actually jeff, im glad you did this. there has been an increase in snarky asides concerning president obama even in this forum...rarely as in your face as this but enough to make me seriously think about leaving this forum. clearly most people here are politically conservative but not all and i think its important for sacred music that we seperate the 2. after all the cause of sacred music in the service of Gods church should transend political differences...shouldnt it?
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Don, a. don't leave; b. there a blogs-a-plenty for the political Catholic malcontents, discontents, incontinents, and "I like RENT's." So, we can have our Panis Angelicus-Living Bread here, and let those folks roll over to those other locales for their no-bake cake and Twinkies. Stay churchy, my friend.
    Thanked by 2don roy ryand
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,576
    .
    1 x 1 - 43B
    Thanked by 2don roy expeditus1
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    Wow, Charles in CenCA, that photo of you is even more than I imagined! You don't look anything like your cat. Does your voice share the same timbre as the Dos Equis gentleman?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,853
    Well, the cat does resemble him a little.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Richard, my cat displays my general disposition, that is guaranteed.
    And sadly, Ex1, I'm a tenor, which among many qualities, excludes me from being a gentleman (sorry JDE) and I don't smoke Cuban stogies or anything else for that matter, and if I have to drink cerveza, only Negro Modelo or Bohemia will do. I'm a notorious WINO, post grad done with Mahrt, MJB, Turk and m'wife at the Wine Institute of New Orleans.
    Thanked by 1expeditus1