Cardine: the cursus planus cadence , the tonic cadences and English.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    In Cardine's discussion of the important interplay of the final two accents in cadential melodic formulas
    I was surprised to see how often the cadential accents are necessarily out of step with Latin text's accents. If you add to this the the closer resemblance to the Latin metrical forms within the Revised Grail then can I hope to see systematic approach to pointing the monastic tones comfortably in English?
    I have no problem creating a psalm tone score for an English text. It is pointing that is the problem.
    I appreciate the ease of the many new simpler formulas that build backwards from the final accents. But that "interplay" between the final two accents within both the melodic cadences and the tonic cadences of the old tones can make for a gentle landing, even on a oxytone.

  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I am currently working on a massive project, creating an English Gregorian edition of the Liturgy of the Hours (with Latin antiphons) -- and what you discuss is a major part of this project.

    I have, in fact, devleoped a systematic approach to pointing the Grail Psalms to the traditional monastic tones. I can sum it up very simply: I treat it as if it's Latin!

    If a phrase ends with an oxytone, I ignore the oxytone and, based on the previous accent, do one of two things: 1) if the previous accent is a paroxytone, I give it its accent, effectively creating a proparoxytone to end the phrase, OR 2) if the accent falls one syllable sooner than that (i.e. the end of the phrase being a true proparoxytone followed by an oxytone), I give the accent to the final syllable of the true proparoxytone - assuming the singer(s) - or at least the director - know how to declaim English intelligibly and will perform the "accent" appropriately.

    While the second case above in particular may seem a random choice to some, to me it effectively produces satisfactory results. I have chosen to implement it for several reasons:

    * It does not require altering (by means of adding or subtracting notes) the original Gregorian tones. I would argue their beauty and recognition as being Christian/Catholic come from their melody over their accent pattern. Respecting their melodic patterns over their accent patterns seems to me more valuable than abandoning some elements of both simply for ease of pointing (as is the case for the English tones popular in many current pointed editions, e.g. Mundelein Psalter, Simple English Propers). If a text is adequately pointed, it does not (at least for me) inhibit my ability to declaim the text well or understand it for purposes of personal prayer and meditation.

    * It seems to follow Solesmes' current choices when this same thing happens in Latin - and it does indeed happen! Solesmes' own pointing of the Latin Psalms in the Antiphonale Romanum II clearly demonstrates their current preference for the melody of the Gregorian tones in those occasions where "the cadential accents are necessarily out of step with Latin text's accents."

    * Anecdotally, I have discovered it often produces satisfactory results because in cadences of two accents, the first melodic accent will then line up with the accent of a proparoxytone followed by an oxytone. In cadences of one accent, there are often preparation tones that melodically aid the initial accent of a proparoxytone followed by an oxytone.

    With respect to the Revised Grail Psalms, for purposes of my project, however, I'm beginning with the original Grail Psalms. This is because 1) they are still the official text of the Liturgy of the Hours, and 2) I intend my edition to be able to be used compatibly with others in community who may be using existing liturgical books. It is my intention, though, to immediately follow this up with a similar version incorporating the Revised Grail Psalms (since they are approved for liturgical use - which I assume also includes the Liturgy of the Hours).

    (And while I find the Revised Grail preferable in many ways, I must admit the original Grail Psalms are not really all that deficient with regard to any "closer resemblance to the Latin metrical forms.")

    In my own pointing of these Psalms, I have found they work quite well with the traditional Gregorian tones and have not really discovered what all the fuss is about with those who claim they do not work adequately with English.

    (As an aside, I find it interesting that I've been musically criticized for giving too much stress accent to Latin... I suppose from my above conflict of viewpoint on English with some of the same authorities, I might also be criticized for not giving enough stress accent to English!)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    The cadential accents are often out of step with the Latin accent, for the sake of simplicity...Cardine shows examples, however, of how the rule adopted for simplicity's sake was often tossed aside during the golden age of chant if it interfered too much with proper declamation. The whole point of his lengthy discussion on this point is to deal with an obvious objection to his contention that the melody does not take priority over the text.

    Bruce Ford has a great article that was posted on this forum at one point containing excellent suggestions for pointing English texts to traditional tones.
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,211
    Best wishes for the project, SkirpR!
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Thanks, Robert.

    Not knowing specifically which Cardine excerpt we're referring to, I will say that I've been under the impression that we're talking about simple psalmody vs. antiphons or anything else more elaborate.

    I remember reading Bruce Ford's article about this in the past, but I sadly don't think it's available any longer with the new forum software.

    I was a latecomer to this apparently long-running debate on the forum. I'm aware many people hold varying views on this - and I see much to support both sides of this coin. I didn't (and don't) wish to rehash it all again, but simply answer Ralph's question about a systematic approach by describing the method that I have chosen to implement in my work and give my reasoning.

    I should add that my reasoning also relies heavily on what you call "simplicity's sake" - as I am literally pointing texts and not providing musical notation for every Psalm in every mode and termination! For those cases where I am planning on providing musical notation (short responsories, invitatories, etc.), I am much more open to making honest-to-goodness adaptations to the implied "rules" for the sake of good declamation.

    As my project is admittedly not of pressing importance to the cause of sacred music in the Church, I'm basically creating something that I personally would like to use on a regular basis - which hopefully some others will also find useful. This approach frees me from many concerns of practicality or compromise. I personally find it aesthetically pleasing (and perhaps comforting...) to recollect the Latin melodies as much as possible - rather than supplant them - provided no undue harm is done to the basic understanding of the text.

    It's interesting to question what would happen if someone took a cantor of the golden age of chant, endowed him with a fluent understanding of modern English, presented him with the Grail Psalms, and asked, "Sing these for me, please." Many seeking to solve this dilemma quite logically try to synthesize such a solution by use of the current scholarly research. Here, I'm just not as interested in applying those principles as I am in singing English translations to beautiful traditional melodies. In this situation, as a musician, the sentimental performer side of me wins out over the scholar.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    SkirpR: I would like to see an example of your pointing. I too appreciate preserving the monastic tones melodic FORM rather than fussing too much about word accents. Mediant and terminal cadences are themselves accents, in an expanded form- in slow motion. I have a 1982 Missallette here: everything is pointed: the Missal propers, the ordinaries, and the psalm verses,the Alleluias, and acclamations. I would like to see that again.
    I am hearing more and more comments from individuals who appreciate the verses to the antiphons,(which do not appear in their worship aid,- ) how certain text touch them in new ways, perhaps psalm verses they have not ever heard before.

    Here is Bruce Ford's article: It has been very helpful to me for solo cantors.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    GIA offers a Pointed revised Grail. Are these pointed for Gelineau?
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    Yes, Ralph. The stressed syllables are marked, so Gelineau tones can be fitted to them. For other tones like Saint Meinrad or Conception Abbey tones, the last pointed syllable in each line can be used and the others ignored.