More Latin chant settings for Sanctus and Agnus Dei?
  • Laura
    Posts: 13
     I am trying to find what all is out there for Latin chant settings for the ordinary.   I am exploring this website (for which I am very grateful!), but I am a bit overwhelmed by the sheer volume of pages.    I am aware of the 18 Masses from the Roman Gradual, as well as the Kyriale Simplex.   I have explored many pages and found repeats of these chants.  Are there other Latin settings for the Sanctus and Agnus Dei that I have overlooked (other than THE 18 Masses (i.e. Missa de Angelis, Orbis Factor, etc.) and those found in the Kyriale Simplex)?   It would seem that in 1500 years of chanting, there would be many more musical chant settings available, but I have not been able to find them, and I don't know where to look.   Can someone help me with this?    If there are more settings on your site that I can't find, can someone please tell me where to look for them?   If there aren't any others on your site, is anyone aware of other settings, and can someone point me to where I can find more information about them?   I am especially looking for Sanctus and Agnus Dei right now.
  • bgeorge77
    Posts: 190
    I asked a similar question here and received no answer.  I would love to know this as well.

  • David Sullivan
    Posts: 355

    Laura, in addition to the 18 Masses in the Gradual (or Liber Usualis), you should find a section of 'ad libitum' settings of the various parts of the ordinary.  This section includes a few more settings of the Sanctus and Agnus Dei.


    As far as other settings, my understanding that there are a vast number of these in the manuscript tradition.  Whether or not they have been published, or are available on line, I don't know, but I'd bet someone on this forum knows.  When Solesmes compiled our modern Gradual and Liber, they made a selection, which is where where we got the 18 settings plus the ad libitum.


    I hope someone chimes in with info about where to find these.  It's something I'd like to know about too.

  • Laura
    Posts: 13

    Thanks for the responses!  This is very helpful!

    To make sure that I understand, please correct me if I'm wrong:   Solesmes publishes pretty much all of the chant (for the Ordinary, and for the Priest's parts, and for the people's responses (such as "Dominus vobiscum" "Ite, Missa Est" etc., for the Latin Rite) that IS published.    There probably is a lot of other chant out there, but it's still in the manuscripts, and nobody has copied/edited/published it yet.   If I have their resources, and have carefully looked them over, there's not much more to find?

  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,792
    Solesmes has mostly ignored the Ambrosian, Sarum and other traditions that have been printed; you might seek out the older publications of the Gregorian Association or the http://www.plainsong.org.uk/publications.php  Plainsong and Medieval Music Society. I think they got around to Latin ordinaries back in the 19th century, so a university library is your best hope.  Sorry I'm unable make clickable links with the new software...
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,187
    Richard (and others) - I had to learn this trick just today!

    1.  Highlight the text you want to appear for the link, then
    2.  Click on the "Insert Hyperlink" icon (second from the right above the edit window, then
    3.  Fill in the URL for the link and click submit.

    Chuck
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,792
    Thanks, I'm just beginning to get the hang...
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 834
    There are also the composed chant-like Ordinaries by Henri DuMont, which are appended to some editions of the Liber.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,187
    With the Anglican Ordinariate now a reality, one might hope for a renewal of interest in something that would allow for the wider distribution and singing of Sarum Rite chant.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I hope that someday I am good enough at these 18 settings to be looking for others.

    I might be good (or average, at best!) at maybe two full mass settings from Solesmes.

    It is difficult to imagine the need for MORE, when I can only hope to live long enough to become familiar with the 18 that are currently so accessible. Those 18 settings are rather daunting as it is. Why look for others?

    This is an odd thread.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    Ryand, I think the desire for more ordinary settings can depend on local circumstances. We have regular Wednesday and Friday Sung Masses in the '62 rite. Have we mastered all of the settings in the Liber Usualis? No, but given that we generally hew to the the assignments of the ordinaries to different days, we're not going to do XVII or XVIII or I or VIII (which we almost never use, since it's done to death elsewhere in our area) etc. etc. Which actually leaves you with relatively few Masses for third class feasts (of which there are many). That, plus, we like to do new and different music and the congregation generally likes to hear it (or is indifferent). So tonight we're doing one of the Dumont ordinaries.
    Thanked by 1Ralph Bednarz
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    Ah, also: "The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care." (Sacrosanctum Concilium 114). That's not limited to the 18 chant ordinaries... and the only way to really preserve music is to keep singing it.
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 834
    The Sarum chant repertory is mostly a local variant of the Gregorian repertory. The only Mass chants not found in other Western sources are for texts found only in Sarum liturgical books (and these almost entirely for local feasts). The textual variants (both musical and verbal) are indeed interesting and worthy of continued study. There were moderately significant ceremonial variations among all the late-medieval versions of the Western Mass, but these were more various than differences between the chant repertories. The Salisbury liturgy was distinguished by its large numbers of sequences and processional hymns and some of these include unique chants. Also, sung Masses for feasts required a troped Kyrie, which accounts for why pre-Reformation English settings of the Ordinary lack polyphonic Kyries. Note that the Sarum liturgy (there were also York, Hereford, Bangor, and Aberdeen liturgical books) is most properly called a Use (as a local version of the Latin/Roman Rite) rather than a Rite.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,187
    Daniel - I'm always explaining to people why the Taverner Masses (and others of the period) lack a Kyrie that, indeed, in England at this time with the Sarum rite (use), the Kyries for feasts were troped. Of course, so often the 6-part Taverner Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas (and other Taverner Masses) are sung with his magnificent 4-part Kyrie Le Roy.

    I've been somewhat lax in preparing a performing edition of the Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas (only have posted the Gloria at CPDL so far) - after having sung it a few times several years ago in Virginia and Washington, D.C. (at the St. Matthew's). My edition of the Kyrie LeRoy is also available at CPDL.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Jahaza:
    "and the only way to really preserve music is to keep singing it."


    So you propose that we continue singing the existing 18 latin settings of the ordinary?

    After all, if we do not sing them, we cannot preserve them. Right?
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    Yes, I propose we keep singing the 18 ordinaries in the Liber/Kyriale, but there's no reason we have to sing just those ordinaries and (as I wrote above) I think S.C. gives good reason why we should sing others as well.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Without having mastered those 18, however, I find it odd to be searching for more.
  • lautzef
    Posts: 69
    There are plenty of other chant settings of the ordinary in facsimile, but you have to dig in there and work to find them and get them in shape to sing. We do a really wonderful one from the French-Cypriote repertory (there are something like 6 of them in the published version) found in the Corpus mensurabilis musicae volume on the manuscript from Turin J II ... (I am not at home so I hope you can forgive the too-vague reference), and we also do a couple of the Henri DuMont settings (mentioned by Daniel Bennett Page already) from the 17th century. They are quite beautiful, and we sing them right off the page rather than doing them in the 4-part improvised and rhythmicized way they were originally performed.

    There are quite a lot of manuscript facsimiles published now, so I would follow Richard Mix's advice and go to the nearest music library or good research library of any description. At Immaculate Conception we try to use a lot of music that has been forgotten, so I am always in one library or another digging away. In my situation I feel obligated to go find the music I know is hiding away somewhere. It's easier now than it ever was - although depending on the Web for it is not as successful as learning how to find your way around a physical library. (The Choral Domain Public Library is an incredible boon all the same.) Transcribing masses from manuscript facsimiles is time-consuming, but what worthwhile pursuit isn't? The results can be amazing and wonderful. I would say half of the music we do at mass is not ""ready to wear" or "off the rack" (sorry for the garment similes, but they fit) - it's music that had to be found, copied, transcribed, "contrafacted," edited, and/or sometimes just plain written first. However, it is exciting to sing it, it is beautiful, and it is truly the handmaiden of the liturgy.

    Fred Lautzenheiser
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    I've been interested in Old Roman chant. Does anyone know if there are any Old Roman ordinaries?
  • lautzef
    Posts: 69
    Sorry for the earlier brain lapse - here's the URL for the catalogue list to the Corpus Mensurabilis Musicae (CMM) volumes - a vast treasure house of all sorts of medieval and Renaissance music that has been transcribed from manuscripts or surviving early prints. Hopefully you can find at least some of the volumes in local university or research libraries.

    http://www.corpusmusicae.com/cmm/cmm_cc021.htm

    The CMM set with the Cypriote-French chant masses is CMM 21 (a 4-volume set with both secular and sacred music, early 15th century). I notice that polyphony only is mentioned in Vol. 1, but I believe the six chant masses are in that volume also. (Maybe I should check that and report back.) The chant varies from easy to difficult, but the polyphony is all quite challenging - you can do it with a really talented early music group, but don't try it unless all the singers have a real sense of adventure! Once you get it, it is stunningly beautiful, with a really unearthly and timeless quality. There is a lot of 2 against 3 and several parts each singing different meters at the same time - hemiola in excelsis.

    The manuscript is Torino, Biblioteca Nazionale, J.II.9 and the editor of this edition was Richard Hoppin.

    Fred

  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Laura,

    Is this what you're looking for? I use this site frequently when I need to look up any of the ordinaries.
  • Laura
    Posts: 13
    Thanks so much to all of you! This is very helpful!
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 163
    While investigating the masses of Dumont, I came across some other mass settings in a quasi-plainchant style.

    The first is Cinq messes en plainchant musical. I found it easy to download from this site
    http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9059803g

    The second is in Google Books, and is Nouveau recueil de messes anciennes et nouvelles en plain-chant ordinaire, and it is in Google Books. A link MIGHT be
    http://books.google.com/books?id=H7O6e3RjSgAC&source=gbs_similarbooks
    If that doesn't work, plug in the name. You may need to hover over the red
    ebook free button to find where to download the pdf.

    I posted about the second of these books on a Yahoo Gregorian Group and got this response:

    Hi Rob; I have had a quick look; it is very interesting and practical music.

    I notice that the last mass is in time (i.e. 4/4) if you make the square with stem a half note, the regular square a quarter note, and the diamond an eighth. Sharps and flats are marked; clefs are C and F (F has the extra blob on the left). And we have unison, duos and trios.

    I think we will try some of these at my church; we have a small but good choir. probably only kyrie, sanctus and agnus for now.

    In the triple time Salvum fac that opens the collection, stemmed note would equal dotted quarter, diamond = eighth, square = quarter. Small notes are like graces in baroque music. Two notes same pitch right beside one another are like a tied note. Sharps are x.

    In the plainchant masses it appears that the rhythmic notations is essentially giving longs and shorts in accordance with the stress of the latin syllables--as is found in other post-tridentine chant sources (not my area of knowledge) so again a stem is long, a square is normal and a diamond is short; but I wouldn't do that in a mechanical way.
    This type of notation also appears in the Merbecke Mass that was mentioned.

    William Renwick
    School of the Arts
    McMaster University
    Hamilton Ontario CANADA L8S 4M2 http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/wr.htm

    I hope these will be of use, and of interest, to those who have been looking for more chant ordinaries.

    Of course, these aren't ancient melodies; those are scattered all over in libraries where many have never been cataloged, so we just have to wait for scholars to unearth them and prepare performing editions!

    Rob
    Portland, Oregon
    Thanked by 2Salieri CHGiffen
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