Corpus Christi Watershed's Vatican II Hymnal is COMPLETE
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    As of yesterday, the Vatican II Hymnal is 100% complete. It is 742 pages long.

    CLICK HERE to view the INDEX

    Please watch the CCW website over the next few weeks, as we will be posting numerous updates, and MUCH more information!

    Just because the Hymnal is complete, that doesn't mean the work is done. There is much to do regarding releasing, the website, etc. We're also still awaiting 1-2 final approvals (applied for in April, and told to expect a final answer in late July).

    You can expect many, many details to be posted on the CCW website over the next few weeks.

    I will also be posting here on Monday, asking for (possible) volunteers to proofread ONE LAST TIME.
  • Heath
    Posts: 918
    Congrats, JMO! Can't wait to have a copy in my hands!
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    This looks great. If you'll take some proofreading of the index, I'd say:

    1. The portion at the beginning not an index, and shouldn't be called one. If it were an index, I would expect to be able to look up "Creed" or "Holy God We Praise Thy Name" or whatever alphabetically to find out what page it's on. The part where you can do that is appropriately called an index, but most of this is actually a table of contents.

    2. Writing "six (6)" and the like is for contracts and other legal documents. In the legal context, it serves the function of giving an quickly-read version (the one in numerals) while the spelled-out one remains controlling in the event of a discrepancy, especially important since numerals can easily be altered by turning a 3 into an 8 or whatever. (The same rule applies in the case of writing checks, BTW; the written-out line controls if it differs from the numbers you put in the box.) I don't know how this practice ever worked its way into other kinds of writing, but it is an abomination.

    3. It would be nice if the page numbers were right-justified (aligned along the right margin), as you have in the hymn indices, rather than ragged. Your word processor should be able to do this, inserting an appropriate number of periods in between the entry text and the page number.

    4. Page spans should use an en dash, not a hyphen. You might not thing "112-115" and "112–115" are different, but they are. The second one is proper style. The hyphens are especially noticeable in the font you have chosen due to their tilt.

    5. The "Gregorian Mass Settings in English" in Section III . . . in what sense are they "Gregorian"? That's a bit misleading, no? I would hope for a somewhat more careful use of terminology: these might be "Gregorian-style," or "English Chant" settings.

    6. Where listed, "SAINT PETER AND PAUL" should be "SAINTS."

    7. Some of the choices made in formatting the "List of Sundays" don't seem to be the best. It is somewhat difficult to read because of so many repetitions where the (A), (B), and (C) entries must all be given (and all in block capitals, apparently). Perhaps you could (1) just list the Sundays, not each individual sub-entry for each Sunday, (2) provide subsection headings for the various liturgical seasons of Advent, Lent, Ordinary Time, and so on, (3) maybe not have everything in block capitals?, and (4) put explanatory phrases ("Evening Mass," etc.) after, not before, the main text of the entry ("HOLY THURSDAY").

    8. In the Alphabetical List of Hymns, the two entries for In Paradisum should be in the opposite order.

    9. In the various places where it appears, there should be no comma after Thou in the title of "Come, Thou[,] Long-Expected Jesus."

    10. Must the web address really be in the header of every single page? That's a little much.
  • Mark,

    As far as #10:

    In the Catholic church where there are parishes in which the music director spends more time pressing PRINT on the copier then they do actually conducting a choir, placing the web address on each page does help. When someone visits the choirloft and "lifts" a page of music they like, it's good advertising. On my books we do it at the bottom of the page in small type just for that reason, since we welcome freely copying and sharing of everything we print from choirbooks to chant books.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632

    I'm thrilled to see this. Congratulations on everything here! And I'm especially excited to see such a full Kyriale.

    Some thoughts, for what they're worth:

    (1) Do you really need to underline Section I? You've already got it boldface, and in a larger font.

    (2) Ditto what MarkT said on right-justifying the page numbers.

    (3) I know this is intended as an "index," but if appropriate, could you indicate here just what "Section I" and "Section II," etc., are?

    (4) In the index, you indicate that it's the "ICEL Mass Setting." I recall Jeffrey T. mentioning somewhere that it would be preferable to label this as the "Missal setting" (or words to that effect) -- the idea being that this is what's in the Missal, rather than what was written by some international commission.

    (5) Ditto what MarkT said about calling them "Gregorian" Mass settings.

    (6) Ditto what MarkT said about Six (6).

    (7) Generally, I'm wondering if you might consider being a bit more judicious about your use of the ampersand (&) symbol for "and." I'm not entirely sure where I'd recommend replacing them, but to me, it's sometimes slightly distracting to see the symbol when I'm reading the phrase as text.

    (8) In your index of Sundays, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed with all the capital letters there. I do see how they contrast nicely with the non-capitalized words, where the occur, but am wondering if you might consider setting this portion of the index a bit differently. (Hm… do you really need to have Optional Readings in boldface italics?) (Also… capital letters are indeed appropriate for the hymn tune titles, of course. Works better there.)

    (9) While I appreciate the different A-B-C page numbers, I'm wondering if there might be a more elegant way of presenting that, without all the repetition — or perhaps you could even omit the distinction altogether.

    (10) Do you really need to indicate "Evening Mass" and "Holy Saturday Night" for Holy Thursday and the Easter Vigil, respectively?

    (11) Related to my No. 8 above, it seems a bit odd to go from written-out numbers (e.g., "Seventh Sunday in Ordinary Time) to numerals ("17th Sunday in Ordinary Time"). (As a writer myself, Jeffrey, I understand that these are all about decisions and compromises you make along the way! I'm just offering my own impressions here.)

    (12) In your alphabetical index of hymn tunes, again, right-justifying the page numbers would be nice. And while I appreciate your "composers of hymn tunes" block of text there, I'm wondering if you'd consider incorporating that information into the list itself. (Not a real big deal for me.)

    (13) In your "Index of hymn tune meters," I appreciate the prefatory text… but is it really necessary? Would you consider including it in a smaller font? (I understand, though, that you have to maintain a consistent appearance in font size choices.) In any case, is there a way you can avoid the hyphen in the word "common"?

    (14) In the "alphabetical index of hymns," having the page numbers precede the titles seems a bit odd, but again, I think I do understand why you did it that way.

    (15) Back to the third page of the index, under "Section IV": Rather than "For full indices, please see below," you might want to indicate the specific page number.

    (16) Same section: Do the words "Liturgical Season" need to be capitalized there? (I'm nitpicking.)

    (17) Okay, MarkT mentioned the en dash versus hyphen thing… with which I concur! (Good to see that I'm not the only one who makes that distinction!) This isn't exactly on the same level, but in the Hymn Index (Seasonal), the bullets seem a bit out-of-proportion… • (on a Mac, Option-8) versus something like · (Option-shift-9)

    I think that's all for now. Most importantly, though… when can I preorder this? Congrats again!

    P.S./edit: Again, beautiful, all of this… and I love the line art. I'm hoping that the cover is as elegant as what's inside!
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,690
    How on earth did you get copyright permission to include Gather Us In in your hymnal?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,439
    Or, perhaps, why on earth...
  • How on earth did you get copyright permission to include Gather Us In in your hymnal?

    Very funny, the only hymns with the word "us" is "He, Who Gave For Us His Life" and "A Hymn Of Glory Let Us Sing".
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,439
    Ah, I see, was a joke...
  • Jeffrey,

    Beautiful work. I concur with all the editorial comments of Mark Thompson and Mark M.

    If this hymnal is intended for congregational use, the cover has to be modest and understated, and the URL should disappear from most pages, maybe appearing only in the index, where a choir director or cantor would be likely to see it, and other people not. I think it's fair to say that this hymnal needs to look as NORMAL to people as possible, so that the superior content may be inserted smoothly and without a lot of fanfare into any parish or chapel.

  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,103
    What a wonderful collection! Thank you, Jeffrey. I agree with the constructive comments made by others above.-
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Many thanks for all the comments posted here, and (in a special way) to those of you who have also E-mailed your (often conflicting) comments and suggestions!

    As is well-known, it often happens that there is not one "correct" way to do things. This is why it was necessary to consult more than 35 Hymnals and numerous other sources, websites, Missals, etc. to create this 742-page work.

    My response (when faced with conflicting information and suggestions) has always been to first do my own research, then take the various suggestions to prayer. This has worked well in the past, and I will continue to follow this method.

    In a special way, I really appreciate when folks not only tell their opinions, but then say WHY they like this or that method or approach.

    The history of Corpus Christi Watershed has been to always try to follow the standard conventions where appropriate and innovate when necessary. As many of you know, the premise for our existence is that we find the current state of Catholic music unacceptable. If it requires innovation to "get us there," so be it. This has worked well in the past, and we will continue. But, again, in our view, the status quo is completely unacceptable, and we find ourselves asking the question: "OK, well why are we in this state? What can be done to get us out?" Then we offer our feeble attempts to the Lord.

    Again, great comments: keep them coming!!!
  • Jeffrey,

    The index looks great. Simply the most comprehensive hymnal I've ever seen. Putting it together with the Chabanel Psalms and the SEP and it is one of the most exciting things I've seen come out of the Catholic music world in a while. Great work! My parish in S. Dakota is more than likely on board with purchasing this hymnal.

    A few things:

    1.) The pastor needs to have it in HIS HANDS to make a decision. He is ready to give his go ahead, but needs to hold it.
    2.) What is the price? Bulk order pricing?
    3.) What is the quality of binding going to be?
    4.) The only concern that I have might be if the Latin Eucharistic Prayer (for example) is set directly next to the English. For some reason seeing the Latin right there is troubling to especially those older than 60-65. It makes sense to put them side by side, but I don't suppose you would/could have them away from each other. Again, it isn't rationale, and I could use the argument that your putting it there is "to show the authenticity of the new translation from the Latin." Diplomacy...arghh!

    God bless you! Again, a very nice job!
  • bsven
    Posts: 20
    Dear JMO, From my limited and bewildered experience in trying to figure out the hymnal scene: this hymnal seems to be the inheritor of the now defunct Worship II hymnal, which I always thought was the best idea post Vat. II. The hymnal, lectionary, and missal, should be one book in the peoples' hands. Is this what you are trying to achieve??
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 541
    I recently had a conversation with someone, whose parish is probably looking to replace their hymnals with something having the new translation of the Mass - I couldn't think of any recommendations. This looks like like it would have been suitable, as it is much closer to a typical hymnal than, for example, the Parish Book of Chant.
  • Mike R
    Posts: 106
    Looks great! I notice several Mass settings listed in the contents that I have not seen before. Are these available online yet anywhere?