Posting for a friend...in a Catholic musical dilemma
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Friend has been told that all Masses in the diocese this year must be the Missa Luna.

    And now word is circulating that after the year is up, another Mass, chosen by the same people with their own agendas, will be put into place for the second year. And it is not going to be chant.

    What is she to do? Does she disobey the decision of the diocesan director of music?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I would say use Masses from Graduale Simplex or Romanum. Since those are the official music books of the Roman Rite, they can't really ban them.

    But then again, that might be a little naive.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    If her pastor wants to sing the melodies in the Missal, sing the melodies in the Missal.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    But they have. The only Mass that can be sung is the Missa Luna. I know it's lunacy (been waiting to have a chance to say that) but it's true.

    Is this a slap in the face to Rome or what?
  • Allan DAllan D
    Posts: 43
    I would just use one part of the required setting, something relatively harmless like the Great Amen, and use something better for the rest of the Mass.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Another idea:
    Reasonably request to use a list of selections, including the missal chants, and ordinaries from the Simplex and regular Graduale, if you are granted your request, problem solved. If not, you'll have proof to pass on to the CDWDS in Rome.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    Has your friend requested permission to use different music? It seems to me that if a respectful letter were sent to the diocesan authorites, a case could be made for granting an exception to the rule, especially if the parish has a longstanding tradition of sacred music. The case would be made stronger if the letter assured diocesan officials that the Missa Luna would be used at least *some* of the time, so that the faithful from that particular parish would know the official setting of that diocese.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    There is no wiggle room, unfortunately. Attempts to question the choice were not answered and when the option of using chant was brought up, those running the meeting made it clear that there was to be no discussion of english chant as an option.

    Missa Luna was chosen because it is bilingual and will bring the spanish and anglo catholics together.

    As you see, music is being used to solve all the problems of conflict between these two factions.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Noel, it's interesting: your diocesan website has a bunch of good resources listed, including an article about the ICEL missal chants and the whole Gregorian Missal. That looks like approved material.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    @Frogman,

    Hmmm... Maybe they should just use latin. Of course, they don't see it that way.
  • Jeffrey CogginsJeffrey Coggins
    Posts: 360
    Missa Luna was chosen because it is bilingual and will bring the spanish and anglo catholics together.


    And I thought Latin was the universal language of the church ... silly me.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Yes, the diocesan site is nicely done, but the director of music of the diocese has refused to discuss the documents of the church or any use of chant during the official training sessions for the diocese about the implementation of the new missal.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    The question that is bothering her is, is it a sin for her to not follow the instructions of the diocese?

    She's been at the parish for years and years and is frustrated.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Am I missing something here, FNJ? Chonak nailed the thesis on the diocesan polituro functionary's cubical: this clown might have a title and the support of a presumably disengaged, if not disinterested ordinary, but s/he has no canonical authority, not to mention an apparent lack of common sense and little respect for church legislation and the concept of free will and trust in those s/he is supposed to serve.
    Who does have the canonical authority in your friend's church? As RC said, your friend's pastor. If the diocesan DM wants to have a political p*ssing contest, let him/her complain to the Boss, who then would either be compelled to act, or not, upon that complaint and address the "disobedient" pastor.
    I get a little visceral about garbage like this (as if Noel doesn't) as it advances all the worst aspects of institutional Catholicism, the pettiness manifested by individuals, whether they're clericalist prima donnas or self-promoted lay magisteria. Harrumph.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
      The Church of Jesus Christ is not short on people seeking after power.
      The Church of Jesus Christ is short on servants.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    CHG
    You've been reading my blog!
    (or else attending Episcopal Youth Events)
    (Thanks.)


    My completely uninformed opinions are:
    -It is not a sin to disobey an idiot.
    -It is potentially a sin to put your financial security in jeopardy if you are raising a family.
    -It is potentially a greater sin to care more about financial security than righteousness.
    -There is a difference between righteousness and self-righteousness.

    WLP sent me a copy of the Missa Luna, but I haven't listened to it because I was only doing reviews of NEW settings.
    Is it that bad? Can it be salvaged with a dignified approach?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Adam ... Yes I have, just today! And the quote seemed remarkably apt for here. Thanks for your writings!

    -Chuck
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I am going to interject something here in defense of the diocesan liturgy director. He's a good man being unfairly attacked, I think. He has said the diocesan policy is that parishes may use Missa Luna, the English chant ordinary from the missal, or the Latin chant ordinary. Parishes may choose the option they prefer from those three. I know this, because I sent a message to him through a third party and asked what we are allowed to use. This policy is in effect for one year from Advent, beginning with learning a new Gloria in September. If some pastor or music director is saying all masses must be Missa Luna, they are simply wrong. The instructions from the chancery and the bishop are clear. However, a pastor could choose Missa Luna over the other two options, and that would be his right to do so.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Kathy's now officially correct. Having exhausted ourselves with Jeffrey's and Adam's, apparently we now have the strange trinity of Charles' to negotiate. I say this after having Chonak ask me to clarify which one of them was I in Duquesne this last June. So, the inestimable Dr. Giffen is "Chuck," our esteemed Byzantine gentleman remains "Charles," and the ineffable moi can revert to his childhood handle, "Charlie." However, if anyone misspells that with an "e-y," I will find you, my trusty Arthur Fiedler 5' baton a-clutching.

    To Charles' point, my conditional apologies to the DDM; we were provided a simple, unadorned scenario. I am most gladdened that a mandate to teach and employ both the ICEL and Jubilate Deo will result from this transition. At a diocesan conference I attended our "music mentors" rejected the very notion of a mandated anything. (Maybe we've gone Unitarian?) They reacted as if I was from Mars when I pointed out the "teachable moment for the ICEL chant" of MR3 that Jubilate Deo did not really enjoy (as in a specific moment.) So, it appears that the bishop has included the Missa Luna in his mandate.
    Well, there's no further discussion necessary among DM's in that diocese....
    But here, we can ponder the wisdom and processes that compelled the elevation of only the Missa Luna as an option to the chanted settings. And that is clearly the only other option as testified by Charles' clarification. Were I a DM in said diocese, I would then have to seriously consider Mr. Wood's taxonomy of the occasion of sin.

    By the way, Chuck, I can barely contain my glee that you've joined our merry band, as is Ms. Kathy! God bless you for all you've done and do for our churches and our art!
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Missa Luna was chosen because it is bilingual and will bring the spanish and anglo catholics together.

    At the risk of overstating Mr. Coggin's great point, I add Yeah, sure, it's just like magic!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Missa Luna was chosen because the new DOM at the cathedral advises the priest, who is director of liturgy and music for the diocese, on matters musical. It's easy to sing and she evidently likes it. However, she isn't in charge of anything outside the cathedral, and directions from the chancery are the ones that matter. The bishop has published a letter mentioning Missa Luna and the English chant as available options. My understanding is that no one ever needs permission to use the Latin chant, since it is always allowed. So, we have three options with Missa Luna as one of those options.
  • fp
    Posts: 63
    Noel, I Emailed the priest in charge of liturgy in our diocese with the exact same question....since it came up at our parish too. His answer was BOTH settings (Luna and ICEL) are permitted.
    The problem comes from the workshops that have been given for church musicians with a HUGE emphasis on Missa Luna.....so our parish musicians have come to the conclusion that Chant would be a cultural shock and that we should only use the other setting. (our spanish population here in the south is 0......and the french would rather have chant....but they haven't been identified as "minority" yet so they have no voice! lol). In another parish close by, it's the pastor who has imposed Missa Luna to all the choirs......it's going to be a looooong year!
    FP
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    If Missa Luna holds to its original format, Peter Kolar's snake oil is still slithering with unauthorized translations. Kolar took it upon himself to translate the now-defunct "Christ has died..." into Spanish. When I called him out on it while he was down here, he did not take too kindly to me. Needless to say, he was not invited back to our diocese. Peter acts like his setting is the greatest thing known to the Church.

    I would say take it up to the CDWDS if the Ordinary is not willing to reign in his music director.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I am passing this all along to her. For people who are "just doing music at my parish" there is a degree of fear due to a lack of information to work from, so a workshop for them may be their only training EVER and it can take on huge proportions to them, deserved or not.

    This is all helpful, thanks to all.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    "Missa Luna"? I guess things will get worse before they get better.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    " If some pastor or music director is saying all masses must be Missa Luna, they are simply wrong. The instructions from the chancery and the bishop are clear."

    People have contacted me to say that at the first orientation by that priest and the DOM of the cathedral and diocese people attempted to ask about doing the chant instead of ML, the discussion was squelched and they were told only ML.

    However, one of them wrote the priest directly and he has replied that whoever said that ML was permitted and the chant was not was wrong.

    Possibly Father was busy or distracted by something when this went on, but there are too many people who "misunderstood" for there not to be some truth to this story. But I need to add that all these people and others are aghast at this mass being chosen to essentially replace the mass of creation as the diocesan mass...which will then be standard for all diocesan events.

    But I think the Chaldean Mass, when celebrated, will get around that issue. The last time I was there they didn't use the organ but the musicians were down where the guitar group strums...lots of room for the string trio plus flute that played some beautiful music, and the violinist what had been a member of the Baghdad Symphony Orchestra played a Chaldean chant with quarter tones....
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Glad to hear that the confusion has been rolled back a little.

    The lucky Chaldeans have their own diocese, and don't have to deal with the local bureaucrats much, except when they need to ask for the use of a church.
  • Mike R
    Posts: 106
    If this is truly causing massive confusion in your diocese, I would suggest bringing this to the attention of the actual diocesan liturgy director, since he is the one who has the authority to implement the bishop's wishes (presumably the diocesan music director does not). Hopefully he would be willing to issue a clarification.
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