How do you put scores of Propers (EF) together with verses and trans. for the schola to sing
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Our schola has been singing for OF for a few years, simple Gregorian Ordinaries, some Propers in English and Latin Communio. Recently we have been blessed to sing EF Mass, starting with Ascension Thursday this year (all the Gregorian Propers for the first time !), which I feel so thankful especially with the timing of Universae Ecclesiae that has been issued recently to emphasize more celebration of EF Mass for all the Catholics.

    The Mass was such a joyful and beautiful one. And we have a priest who encourages our small schola to sing Missa Cantata more often. Since he is a pastor of two parishes with 7 Masses on Sundays, he generously offers EF Mass on Thursday, which is his off-day. (This is also perfect for us for now, because we need a good amount of time to prepare to sing more often. With God's grace, I pray that there will be more parishes in this area for EF Masses on Sundays.) So I'm putting the score of the Propers for the feast of St. Dominic, 8/4 and St. Michael 9/29 (according to the old calendar, they are both on Thursdays.)

    I literally cut-and-paste the antiphones and verses and the translations from different sources to make packages for schola members, and they don't look good at all. So I''m wondering whether there are better ways, or sources that have them all together. All the sources I know don't seemed to have verses and translations all together with antiphones even for Sunday Propers.
    So would schola directors or others please share how you put music together for your schola members? Thank you.
  • Mia: We should talk. I'll be glad to share tips/tricks/methods that have worked for me.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,164
    Mia. Your pastor, your schola, and especially you are a joyous blessing to your community. Even with resources cobbled together, you make the music of the EF Mass beautiful - you make it truly the music of the Church. Thank you on behalf of all that will be strengthened and enriched in their faith and not know why.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,176
    The scores on Jogues Chant have translations; are you using those at all?
  • I have been using Snipping Tool to cut-and-paste together the propers, using Mass and Vespers where possible (i.e., it agrees most of the time with the LU), and using the Communio settings here on Musica Sacra because they have the verses already set. (I wish they were formatted in the 8.5 x 11 page size, as there are several of us who need the propers larger--and most of the places we sing have totally inadequate lighting in the loft, so even the youngsters are grateful for the larger ones!) But recently I've been using (the EF section of Corpus Christi Watershed; Jogues Chant is the OF section).

    I include the collects and readings, so that when we put together our folders (The Black Folder with both rings and strings) one just keeps turning pages, and I put things that go together (Gradual and Alleluia) with the first page hole-punched on the right, so there is no page turn in between them. We have separate pages for the Asperges or Vidi aquam, the Mass parts, and the dialogues that go into their correct places, so we don't even have to use the PBC unless we want to. The only thing I have not printed is the Canon--most of us have hand missals or use the red paper missal.

    Our schola celebrates its third anniversary this August, and we have assembled quite a collection of propers and Masses and repertoire (mostly PD and Creative Commons but also some purchased music--Durufle's Ubi caritas, for one) at this point! Everyone has a second large binder and keeps their own copies of everything so they have their own 'hieroglyphics' as I call them! I have extensive notes with my copies so that we know what we did last year on each day, what worked, what didn't, where the snares for the unwary were, if the celebrant had any requests/comments, and so forth. There is an Excel file with our repertoire database (not including propers) that I send out every so often, asking if everyone has everything or to let me know if they need it.
  • WGS
    Posts: 299
    For the E.F. of the Mass, I have found it helpful to use the attached cross reference between the Gregorian Missal and the chants called for in the Liber Usualis. The chants are easier to read in the GM, and the book itself is easier to handle than the LU. Also, I feel more comfortable making pencil notes in the GM than I would in my LU.

    With a two-sided print and judicious trimming, the cross reference fits nicely in the back of the GM.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thank you and these are all good, but it seems there's only one book of Gregorian Propers, as far as I know, Liber Usualis, which is kind of heavy to hold and sing from, and it doesn't have verses nor the translations. Since we have English Propers together in a book for OF, such as SEP and Simple Choral Gradual, maybe it's possible to put Gregorian Propers for EF together, especially since the Pope and the Church want to have more EF Masses in parishes? It will certainly make it easier and encourage more schola to sing Missa Cantata and help the directors to prepare. Maybe there are people already have them all together in their computer and willing to put them on-line to share?

    (and thank you, CHGiffen, for the kind words. It's such a blessing that our schola, which started as a small Gregorian chant study group, is now singing EF Mass. What an honour for us. Through CMAA forum, Colloquium and the chapter meeting, I got lots of help. Daniel Page has been a big help, and Jenny whom I met through CMAA is also coming to sing with us. And my two boys are learning to serve Traditional Mass with the main server, a young man converted about 3 years ago ( while he was getting a graduate degree in history, he discovered the true Church.). It was truly moving when those three servers swept 40 some years of dust under the wood cover of the steps below the altar table, (which is used for OF Mass on other day,s and we have to put them back after EF Mass) and beautiful to see these young people and the celebrant learning to do High Mass step by step to make the liturgy more beautiful. There are so much to share.)
  • Mia, Mass and Vespers is essentially the LU (slightly older version, which is why one has to check) with side-by-side translations, and the chants (transcribed from the LU) at have the translations along with the chants; likewise the Communios here at Musica Sacra.

    I'll attach my EF propers document for the Feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist (here is hoping this works). The pages break at the specific spots so that the Ordinary and any other motets/chant-hymns can be inserted at the correct places. Ut queant laxis was sung during the Offertory, after the Offertory chant, if I remember correctly. It was the celebrant's 10th ordination anniversary, his first EF, and Missa Cantata as well.
  • rsven
    Posts: 43
    Mia, Go to MusicaSacra, click on chant books, go down to Latin chant books, and click on "Mass and Vespers". This is a 2000 page book published in 1957 that has every piece of chant you will ever need, completely translated on every page. It is far better than the gregorian missal. The only problem is that it contains all of the readings for the Mass, so you must cut and paste and enlarge the propers. But once you've done it for one year, you've got it. Enlarge every chant so that it fits the entire page. I also notate the salicuses and quilismas, for quick reading, and also the groups of three for rhythmic unity which makes for much faster learning. I downloaded the propers section of this book onto a flash drive and took it to a printing store to make it into a binder. They enlarged it for me. The first year, It took me about an hour a week to prepare the propers. Once done, it's mine forever. Now, I just pull the propers for each week. The keys to efficient teaching of chant, week after week, are rhythm and TRANSLATION. Not only is it spiritually beneficial to know what you are singing, but it cuts the learning time in half.
  • Rsven...sounds like your work might be something to be scanned and shared!
  • rsven
    Posts: 43
    Dear frogman, I would be glad to share if I knew how to scan!!!! I'm sure I could figure it out. I could put just one Sunday up so you could see it. How do I go about this? Is this like asking someone over the telephone how to put the car in second gear?
  • I download the pages from the LU and then crop out the chants I need and save as TIF files. The translations are available at (yes, for the Mass too).
  • Forgot to mention that pdf files open in Photoshop and you can save each page as a Tif file. Then crop them.
  • First of all, and this is the easy part, you need a scanner.

    Then it gets hard, as you have to set drivers up to make it work and figure out the settings needed to make it work right.

    Often, a church secretary knows how to do this....
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Often, a church secretary knows how to do this....

    You must have worked at some pretty progressive parishes.
  • WHAT WAS I THINKING? I meant, protestant church secretaries.
  • While I have a scanner at home, I've been moving more and more toward just cropping the parts I need from Mass and Vespers and pasting them into a Word file, then using PrimoPDF to save it as a pdf so I can send it to my scholistas and let them print it out in advance or if they miss rehearsal. I don't have PhotoShop so I use Snipping Tool (on a Toshiba with Windows 7; there are other screen capture utilities available, I'm sure). I play with the size of the original on-screen to get a really good readable jpg output, and because I use a large-screen laptop I usually end up with half a page of M&V or the LU per jpg, which actually helps in the paste-up stage as it gives some flexibility as to page breaks.

    I am slowly starting to scan the ones I had previously done as paste-ups (but it's job #437...).

    I do put in the collect(s) and the Epistle and Gospel so that we can follow along in our folders rather than having another book/missal/paper to juggle.
  • Patricia, rsven: I would be very interested in feedback regarding several online alternatives for providing chant scores for your scholas.

    At the ICRSS website (no English translation): 7th Sunday after Pentecost
    At Rene Goupil website (with English Translation):

    Both of these sites are intended to provide pretty much exactly the sort material you are preparing for yourselves. Would you be willing to have a look at them provide feedback as to what is lacking (content, usability, aesthetics)?
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    Patricia, rsven: I would be very interested in feedback regarding several online alternatives for providing chant scores for your scholas.

    At the ICRSS website (no English translation): 7th Sunday after Pentecost
    At Rene Goupil website (with English Translation):

    These are both very nice resources. Yet I would still end up having to cut-and-paste a bit because:

    1. I like to have the full Gloria Patri after the introit (ICRSS has only the abbreviated);
    2. I usually use the gradual and alleluia with simplified verses from R. Rice's Simple Gradual;
    3. I like to sing the offertory with a verse (from R. Rice's Simplified Offertory Verses) (neither ICRSS nor RG have the offertory verse); and
    4. I like to sing the communion with a verse and Gloria Patri (neither ICRSS nor RG have the offertory verse).

    These are not criticisms of either resource. They just reflect that the perfect resource is the one customized to my particular needs, and that in an age when the Graduale Romanum, Liber Usualis, Simple English Propers, Parish Book of Chant, R. Rice's Simple Offertory Verses and Simple Gradual and Communios with Verses, are just a click a way, I have the luxury of customizing them to my needs.
  • WJA - terrific feedback. Thanks!
  • rsven
    Posts: 43
    Actually, the Rene Goupil looks good. The last time I had checked them, some time ago, the Gradual and Alleluia were abreviated, but these are the full chants. The Gloria Patri for the Introit is missing, as well as Offeratory verse and Communion verses. But these are downloadable from the CMAA website, and could be pasted in place. The only advantage the Mass and Vespers from 1957 has is that the translation is quite prominent, in the upper right hand corner of the chant, hard to miss. Were I starting from scratch, I would gladly use the Ren Goupil if every Sunday is complete like this one. I do have hard copies, enough for everyone, in a file for every Sunday. I hand out two packets at rehearsal: one with Propers, four pages double-sided and stapled, easy to hold; and one for Ordinaries, held together with a clip so that I can change the Mass settings when needed. These are easier to hold than a binder, and it has worked for us. We need nothing else, except everyone has a Parish Book of Chant, and there are the polyphony handouts when we are together enough to be able to include that! The only other tip I can give is that I notate the Proper scores: quilismas, salicuses, and circled groups of three. Sometimes in rehearsal I have the schola circle the verbs in the text, which seems to bring home the textual structure. You have to be a bit of a third grade teacher here, sorry.
  • Arthur, I would concur with rsven on the issue of customization. My schola often does two Missae Cantatae on the same Sunday in two different parishes, one at noon and one in the evening, with one priest insisting on the Rossini propers (no flames, please), and the other priest wanting the full LU chants, no accompaniment. So we have two sets of the propers for most days. (We actually find the Liber propers much easier to chant.)

    Also, my schola prefers the immediate accessibility of the translations in Mass and Vespers to the separate translations at Rene Goupil and the Communios available here. They want to know what it means, and which words mean what, and any interpretation/commentary on the text that I want to give. (We used to have a high school girl singing with us who, after rehearsal one night, said "This is the best kind of catechisis, way better than CCD!"; she was in the midst of her second year of pre-confirmation studies and bored silly.) I would also strongly agree with rsven that knowing what the individual words in the text mean is very helpful, both to learning and to singing with intelligent phrasing and beauty.

    I don't mark the scores, though; I let everyone mark their own, and then they keep their own copies of the propers in their separate binder so they have their own markings (hieroglyphics :-).

    (I do the same thing with my work-church Anglicans, except I keep their propers in folders by day because they don't like to keep their own; we have a long table in the loft and I set out everything in order on Sunday morning, and anyone who wants their own hieroglyphics is free to find their own copies in the piles. They do put their names on anthems/motets as well.)

    Chacun a son gout...
  • rsven, BTW, I have two teachers in my schola, kindergarten and high school, so jokes about what to mark and how abound...and because the majority of the singers are not trained musicians, but 'just' wonderful people, the group is hungry for any and all knowledge/teaching. They are a joy to train and conduct.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Another suggestion I found useful for combining ordinaries/propers/etc.: Put them on different colors of paper. It helps people to quickly see how to re-assemble their music for the next Mass.

    Plus, it helps the singers to learn about the fact that there ARE different kinds of music in the Mass! I think most people in the congregation have only the vaguest impression about how it's structured - it's just a mishmash of familiar and unfamiliar stuff.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Just so everyone is aware: ReneGoupil is unique that we have always included (and continue to include) EVERY Gloria Patri (fully written out) for every Introit 100% of the time.

    I thought I saw a comment that says ReneGoupil does not provide the written out Gloria Patri.

    It absolutely DOES . . . just scroll down to the bottom of each page.

    God bless.
  • For presenting English translations, I've experimented with the inset style in Mass and Vespers. Here (Compline2_12E.pdf) are sample pages from a booklet for Compline (8 1/2 by 11, folded, staple-bound).

    But in actual use, I felt the short lines next to the inset we're awkward to read. As an alternative I've experimented with this other format (MassPurification_ProcBookE.pdf - 8 1/5 by 14, folded, staple-bound) which I like much better because the scores are large and the translations line up with the latin.
  • rsven
    Posts: 43
    JMO, I stand corrected: renegoupil does have the full Gloria Patri; I didn't scroll down enough. Patricia C., what is a work church Anglican? Sounds intriguing. When I started in my schola, they were used to singing the Rosinni's, and eyed me with great suspicion when I brought in the first real communio. I had to resort to help from a religious brother to persuade them that this was the preferred thing! I don't want to go too far afield from our topic here, but there are other issues I would like to discuss with this group about scholas that sing the propers often. Maybe someone can start a new thread? And Arthur Connick, these are beautiful renditions. Do you do them yourself? Are the Mass Propers translated as well? And, in particular, I am interested in the compline. I would be interested in purchasing a complete setting for it. I am only familiar with the novus ordo office, (in English), but want to learn the ER, which I assume this is. From this discussion, I see that there are some beautiful settings out there being cut and pasted for ER scholas, although no official book exists for practical use. There are some directors, especially with a religious life background, who insist on singing from the Liber U. But in my experience, this doesn't work with my group. And--all that I've done, I copied from Scott Turkington, whose teaching has been invaluable. Thank you, Scott.
  • rsven, re 'Work-church Anglican'--LOL, that's just my way of differentiating between the church where I work (very high-church Anglican, where I'm the choirmaster, which was my home parish before I converted) and my "home parish", where the pastor is the Bishop's Delegate for Sacred Liturgy in the EF. I also direct a schola for the EF (and sometimes for the OF) that chants for the EF two or three times per month in the two parishes that have a weekly Sunday EF (mine and one other) and once a month at the cathedral. At my 'work-church', if one could not determine what the chanted language was, one would think it was the EF, Missa Cantata...

    As Adam Wood wrote on a separate thread:
    (Funny... Since the Episcopalians only haphazardly got the benefits and pitfalls of the liturgical reforms, sometimes knowing about the Tridentine Rite is the only way to make sense of what they're doing.)

    LOLOL (Sorry, I couldn't resist) At my 'work church', if one could not determine what the chanted language was, one would think it was the EF, Missa Cantata... When my mother died and had her sung requiem at my work church (her home parish), most of my Catholic friends who came had a hard time believing that it wasn't a Catholic parish, and most commented that 'THAT'S what Sunday Mass ought to look like!". Chanted propers followed by hymns (all the verses!) or motets, chanted dialogues and Gospel, chanted eucharistic prayer, congregation of about 150 sings with great gusto...
  • rsven
    Posts: 43
    Patricia Cecilia, Sounds heavenly. I, too, am a convert from the Episcopal Church. Now I know why you sound so familiar to me! May we all eventually be one. Do you do a children's choir?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,164
    I, too, come from (high) anglican paths and appreciate where you find yourself on your journey, Patricia. You are blessed ... but then, of course, we do honor Blessed Cecilia!