GIA: Triplex or Regular?
  • Johnny Domer
    Posts: 21
    I want to buy a 1974 Graduale Romanum (NOT the Graduale Triplex). There aren't too many places that have them in stock, but GIA apparently sells it at the link at the bottom. My worry is that they don't include a picture of the cover of the book, and I'm afraid that I might be ordering the Triplex. Has anyone here ordered a Graduale from GIA? If so, which version (regular or triplex) did they wind up sending you?

    http://www.giamusic.com/search_details.cfm?title_id=2193
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    That's the right one
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    What would be so horrific about a Graduale Triplex?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    It's got all those dang squiggles in it!
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Adam, one day when you meet him, ask Pedro D'A. If he'd show you his GT-
    squiggle apoplexy! :-)
  • Johnny Domer
    Posts: 21
    Nothing horrific about the Triplex; I just want to use the regular one to make photocopies/scans for the other people in my choir, and it's easier for them to read sans squiggles. Also, I myself have no idea what any of the squiggles mean and, given that I'm probably not going to be doing advanced chant studies in the future (I'm a law student), probably won't ever have use for them.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Can someone explain, simply (if it's possible) what the squiggles mean, or direct me to a resource?
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    The squiggles (paleography) are the early notation from the Laon and St. Gall manuscripts. The GT is basically outdated at this point with the advent of the Graduale Novum, which is cleaner, easier to read, lacks the unnecessary clutter of the added Solesmes rhythmic signs, and includes melodic restitutions and citations for critical commentary.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    The Triplex, for regular use, is information overload.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Umm, Incantu, there is a problem with the Novum at this point: it is a purely private production and the chants are not official. Of course maybe that means nothing in the current environment (ordinary form) but there you go.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    lacks the unnecessary clutter of the added Solesmes rhythmic signs

    Unless, of course your schola uses them to sing... which is not unheard of and perhaps not even uncommon?
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    If you just want to make photocopies, why don't you use the 1961 Graduale, that is put online by Musica Sacra? If you don't want to have the Solesmes markings, on http://jeandelalande.org/HOME/GRADUALE.htm you can find the Vaticana edition and also the Schwann edition.

    If you are overburdened by the Graduale Triplex, you could use the Graduél Neumé by Cardine, that is to be found under the aforementioned URL. It has the text of the 1908 Vaticana with the neums by St. Gall.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Jeffrey, I don't see how this relates to the EF. The Graduale Triplex is not an official edition, either. That is to say, the stuff that makes it the Triplex is not official. If you're using that edition in the first place, it probably means you're not interested in performing according to the Vatican notation or according to the Solesmes method (there are the Roman Graduale, Liber Usualis, Gregorian Missal for that). If you're interested in performing from earlier manuscript notation, why not use the Novum, which is more suited to that purpose?
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Incantu, or anyone, are there any writings on the study of 'melodic restitutions' in Graduale Novum'?

    I thought the old manuscripts have more rhythmic details than what is in GR and less precise, just relative pitch indications. (I might be wrong, because I haven't studied the old manuscripts much though.)

    I use rhythmic markings from 'Gregor und Taube,' and compare them from Triplex, but when there are changes in the melody, I'm hesitant to use them. I'd like to learn more.
  • Jeffrey MorseJeffrey Morse
    Posts: 202
    In the EF, the propers of the Mass can be sung with the melodies of the Graduale, to psalm-tones, recto-tono, or polyphonically (i.e. Byrd's Gradualia), as this is the case, I cannot imagine using the Graduale Novum would be a bad thing. It is the text which is important.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Mia, remembering being at Loyola three years ago, and being somewhat appalled by the mountain we had to climb, I read this statement of yours and can't help but smile:

    I use rhythmic markings from 'Gregor und Taube,' and compare them from Triplex, but when there are changes in the melody, I'm hesitant to use them. I'd like to learn more.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Greg, thank you and we missed you at the Colloquium? I know what you mean. I happened to read my first questions that I posted here. My very first post was "Can I sing Latin in all-English Mass?" :-)
    3 years later, after the 'chant boot camp with Scott' in Loyola, God led our schola to sing EF Mass. We sang all the Gregorian Propers for the Ascension Thursday for the first time this year.(with a touch of Semiology approach that I experienced from Colloquium and studying books that are recommended here.) The Mass was the most beautiful and joyous one. After the Mass, everyone's face, including people at the pews, servers, and celebrant, chanters, were glowing with joy. What a beautiful liturgy we have! We felt so proud and thankful to be Catholics. We wanted to go out and share this beauty and the joy with others.
    I pray that many more people may experience the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with the beautiful Church's own songs of her prayers.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    benyanke-
    I don't think anyone explicitly answered your question yet, but I believe that the most thorough and relatively accessible resource to help in understanding the squiggles is Cardine's "Gregorian Semiology." (published by Solesmes, translated by Fowells.)
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    The Graduale Novum contains references to extensive commentary on all of the melodic restitutions.

    The G&T site has some very useful scores. The editor is one of the group who worked on the Novum, although his melodic readings don't always agree with the GN. The G&T score also only has the St. Gall notation. This is great for my choir because it is easier to read, I think, than the Laon. But a director MUST consult both sources in order to come up with an accurate reading. The reason is that St. Gall scribes often use shorthand, for example two short notes that are understood by convention to be long. There are also errors and omissions. Even if you read St. Gall with fluency, unless you have the entire body of chant memorized, there are some things you will miss by using just the G&T scores.

    Gregorian Semiology is a great an necessary read, but it offers little practical interpretive advice. I recommend Gregorian Chant According the the Manuscripts by Dom Gregory Murray, which leads the reader through a comparison of actual chants in the various genres and modes, each with paleography from several different manuscripts.
  • Xavier Rindfleisch
    Posts: 37
    "I cannot imagine using the Graduale Novum would be a bad thing."

    Hear, hear!
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