Final Draft of Vatican II Hymnal — 502 pages long !!! Now posted for all to see.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Vatican II Hymnal

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    Sample Pages      •      Index & Contents (PDF)

    750 PAGES LONG • COMPLETE READINGS FOR ALL SUNDAYS AND MAJOR FEASTS FOR YEARS A, B, & C • FIRST HYMNAL EVER PRINTED TO CONTAIN COMPLETE TEXTS FOR THE SUNG PROPERS • MORE THAN A HUNDRED PAGES OF MASS SETTINGS USING THE NEW TRANSLATION OF THE ROMAN MISSAL • COMPLETE TEXTS IN LATIN AND ENGLISH FOR BOTH FORMS OF THE MASS (ORDINARY & EXTRAORDINARY) • BEAUTIFUL HYMNS, INCLUDING MORE THAN 100 PAGES OF COMMUNION HYMNS • SAINT NOËL CHABANEL RESPONSORIAL PSALMS, GARNIER ALLELUIAS, AND MUCH MORE



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    Questions & Answers         •         Foreword by His Excellency         •         Cover Art


    Organ Harmonizations (Hymns & Mass Settings):
            Section I  •  Organ Accompaniments through Page 201
            Section II  •  Organ Accompaniments for Pages 203-373download for free  or  purchase the book
            Section III  •  Choir Scores  •  in process
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    Responsorial Psalm Harmonizations:
            Click here to view organist scores for Vatican II Hymnal Responsorial Psalms.
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            Click here to view organist scores for Vatican II Hymnal Gospel Acclamations.

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  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Oh, look… I see you included the Latin titles of the propers! Thank you!

    Am eagerly awaiting seeing the "Kyriale" section, and the rest of the front matter.

    Jeffrey, I'm thinking I'm not the only one in this situation: My parish is considering various hymnals, and among the consideration is, of course, cost. At this point, do you have any idea what the pricing schedule will be?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 102:

    Verse 3: "if with His love He befriend thee".

    (1) I take it that the lower-case "he" and "his" in the book are intended.

    (2) I see that Catherine Winkworth starts this phrase with "if" in her "Chorale Book for England". Is there a problematic theological or spiritual implication from the "if" -- rather than a "when"? Do we really want members of the congregation wondering: "does God befriend me?" That would be a Bad Thing: hymns -- if we're going to have them -- should be encouraging people to focus on God, not worry about their personal spiritual state. If you want to adopt the "when", is there a public-domain source for it?

    Verse 6:
    "Gladly for all we adore him".

    (3) Why "for all" and not the classic "for aye" (as Winkworth has)? This is a change in meaning. Is "for all" taken from a PD source?
  • I have not taken much of a look through this yet, but I did notice that on p. 140 (All Glory, Laud, and Honor), the R/ sign is missing from the ends of the verses. It really ought to be there. Also, the diaeresis on the e in "Bles - sëd" is also not correct. Since the second syllable has its own note, there is no danger of its being pronounced "Blest," and even if there were, the correct diacritic to indicate that the syllable should be sounded separately is not the diaeresis but the grave accent (i.e., "Bles - sèd").

    Taking a further quick glance, I see you also don't have the R/ indicated on Lift High the Cross (p. 142) or Immaculate Mary (p. 157), and where you use it in Hail the Day (p. 150) and Hail, Holy Queen (p. 159) you just have "R." instead of the traditional crossed R. Couldn't you find a font that had it?

    EDIT: Also, two thought about your "Notes on the Vatican II Hymnal" page:
    1. You write:
    Who wants to be singing the same hymn tune as Entrance Hymn during Lent, Eastertide, Ordinary Time, and Advent??!!! Nobody! This method is sheer laziness on the part of the editor, and we have avoided this method at all costs in our hymnal.

    Well, no, the other reason for doing this is so that the congregation has a smaller number of hymntunes that it has to be familiar with in order to confidently sing things.

    2. You also write:
    The primary reason for this is because we now live in the age of Google. A person can learn everything he ever wanted to know about a hymn by typing into Google 3-4 words of any of the verses. There is absolutely no reason under the sun to include all this in a hymnal.

    No. The reason is intellectual honesty and proper attribution. These are ends in themselves. It verges on dishonest to use the intellectual work of composers and translators without attribution. I'm not sure I could honestly recommend the use of a hymnal that did not at least put this information in the index.

    One could also point out that there is "no reason under the sun" to put anything like "Possible use: Christmastide" at the top of Joy to the World, since anyone can just Google it and find out that it is usually sung around Christmas, which completely deflates your argument that these pointless notations absolutely must be present or else idiot music directors will have no clue how to select hymns.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,423
    Personally, Chonak, I'm very fond of this "If." It makes the gentleness of the subjunctive possible--"befriend " vs. "befriends." I think the apparent conditional is meant poetically, and meant to give rise to the sentiment, "Of COURSE he will befriend me!"

    At the same time it could lead to confusion.

    If anyone does change the "If" to "When" or "Since" or "For," please add an s to "befriend."

    Regarding the inclusion of standard basic information on tunes and composers: Just a half hour ago I pointed out to an organ student that he has been playing Bach's arrangements of several hymns. Pointing to Bach's name in the hymnal that he actually plays from makes this point much better than saying, "Let's go look it up on the Google."
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    MarkThompson,

    which completely deflates your argument that these pointless notations absolutely must be present or else idiot music directors will have no clue how to select hymns.


    I don't believe I ever said the word "idiot," nor would I, so please feel free to edit your comment accordingly. I appreciate it!

    Just for the record, I am one of those "idiot music directors."
  • Oh, I know; I never said you said it, which is why I didn't put it in quotation marks. But I maintain that if a music director is unable to select hymns out of a properly structured thematic index, then it is a wonder they can figure out how to open a box of cereal in the morning, let alone rise to become a parish music director.

    The reason I'm being so pointed here is because I really think having these notations prominently announced at the top of every hymn is a much worse idea than putting them in an index. What is the congregation going to think when a music director decides to schedule Praise to the Lord, the Almighty as a recessional hymn in Easter time, which would be a perfectly legitimate choice, when in big font, with CAPITAL LETTERS and all, it says "Possible use: ORDINARY TIME. Entrance hymn option"? Or Come, Holy Ghost as an offertory hymn at a celebration of confirmations, when it big font and CAPITAL LETTERS it says "Possible use: PENTECOST. Communion hymn option"? Why create this cognitive dissonance? I wonder how many directors would have to hold back from scheduling hymns when they wanted because they were afraid that the congregation -- or worse, the pastor -- would think they had "messed up" and were singing the hymn at the "wrong time." The mere creation of the momentary cognitive dissonance alone creates a distraction from the Mass.

    Only one soul in the entire parish needs to know what hymns are options for when, and if that person is incapable of finding and navigating a well-structured index that breaks down the hymns into seasons, feasts, and liturgical functions, then frankly he ought to be let go. I expect he also would have no hope of being able to effectively navigate your notations at the tops of these pages either, making them doubly pointless.

    Knowing you, JMO, I cannot for a moment imagine that you would be completely stumped by an index. :)
  • Jeff,

    I'd like to second what Mark says about the directions at the top. I've mentioned it before, but this is didacticism and not nearly as helpful as a well-designed index would be. For me, the cognitive dissonance that Mark mentions dissuades me from purchasing the hymnal. Also, the pages which state that hymns "may" be used for communion, etc. end up looking like rubrics to the layman. The last things that the cause of sacred music needs are more unofficial statements that gain the status of "rubric."

    ***Please, please, please*** reconsider these headers and instructions and place the information in an index instead. Directors know how to use indices and multiple types of indices would be more suitable to your user-friendly purposes (e.g. by feast, by liturgical placement, scriptural reference, etc.) The very fact that your hymns have an ordering based on liturgical placement will suffice to help directors and congregation alike understand.

    JD
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Friends,

    As always, thank you for all these great comments.

    I do not have time to address them all at this moment.

    However, I feel the need to point out the various hymnals that have headers on the top of each and every hymn, labeling them as "Christmas" — "Advent" — "Lent", etc.

    They are as follows:

    ADOREMUS, RITUALSONG, NEW ENGLISH HYMNAL, HYMNS ANCIENT AND MODERN, THE COLLEGEVILLE HYMNAL, GLORY AND PRAISE, ETC. ETC.

    These are the most famous hymnals I know. They all have headers.

    However, this is not reason I did the headers. But I don't understand why I've never read any criticism on this forum of ADOREMUS, RITUALSONG, NEW ENGLISH HYMNAL, HYMNS ANCIENT AND MODERN, THE COLLEGEVILLE HYMNAL, GLORY AND PRAISE, ETC. because they all have headers.

    As always, I welcome any comments and suggestions. Many of you will notice that your excellent suggestions have been incorporated.

    Jenny, regarding rubrics for Communion texts: Were you able to scroll to the (300 page) section that has all the readings? We are the only hymnal ever published to include the Communion Antiphons --- and we reprint them for each and every feast (Years A, B, & C).

    The reason I ask if you saw that section is because you have to scroll past like 200 pages before you get into the READINGS section.
  • If I'm not mistaken, in other hymnals the notation is smaller and less obtrusive, they don't generally label hymns as being for Ordinary Time, and they never label hymns by part of service (opening hymn option, recessional hymn option, etc.). It is one thing to list O Come, O Come, Emmanuel as being for "Advent," and rather another to list Praise to the Lord, the Almighty as being for Ordinary Time, and for the entrance hymn.

    If you are really wedded to having these notations, I would suggest the following changes: (1) do not designate hymns as being for Ordinary Time, (2) do not designate hymns as being for the entrance or recessional, (3) "Communion hymn option" hymns could probably be listed in a section called "Eucharistic hymns" without forcing upon people your judgment that these are the ones for Communion, and (4) cut the size of the font you are using in half. Why must it be gigantic?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 104:
    verse 1: The word "golden" should be hyphenated.
    verse 5: "leadest" should be hyphenated.

    verses 4-6: These could use a "R/" mark at the end of each verse.
  • I agree with Mark about the way to modify the headings so that they are less assertive. While it is understandable to identify seasonal appropriateness, to overly dictate the likely or reasonable use of hymns could be problematic. We are trying very hard to get people to sing beautiful hymns in place of substandard ditties, so there should not be too much assertiveness -- even with the intention of being helpful -- that might create what someone (Mark?) called cognitive dissonance.

    That is, your hymn selections are applauded, and your choice to have headers is acknowledged, but shouldn't the "recommended for" apparatus be downplayed somewhat?
  • PS -- That being said, what a glorious book you are preparing! Congratulations on reaching this milestone in the journey. Your hymnal will introduce a new standard in what parishes might legitimately expect from a one-volume resource. Does it not stand to reason that one volume should contain everything that is normally required for Mass in English? Keep up the fantastic work.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 107:

    (1) The use of capital letters at the onset of phrases is not consistent. "Though the eye of sinful man" has a capital T, while "only Thou art holy" does not get a capital O. Each is the start of a poetical line; neither is the start of the sentence, so the different treatment is puzzling.

    (2) verse 1: As Mark observed for Hymn 140, the diaeresis is for marking a syllable break between two vowels, in words such as "naïve" and names such as "Chloë". (Source: Fowler's Modern English Usage). Therefore the diaeresis on "bless-ed" is not needed.

    (3) verse 2: "All saints adore thee". The editions I can find give this as "All the saints adore thee". Is there a reason for omitting the "the"?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 105:
    Doesn't Folliot Sandford Pierpoint sound like a font name?
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Some minor points:

    On O Sanctissima, you might consider making the Latin verse #1, and the English verse #2. This would be consistent with some of the Latin hymns that follow.

    For Pange Lingua (p. 166), would you consider setting the text to the "Tantum Ergo" tune? (Or will you already have this in the Holy Thursday section?)

    When you make reference to Stuttgart on p. 125, would you consider giving a page reference for that, too?

    The word "Ascensiontide" seems awkward to me.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Friends, great comments: "keep 'em coming"

    (Mark M. — the familiar "Tantum Ergo" is at Holy Thursday: were you able to make it that far? I know there are 502 pages!!!)
  • Jeff,

    Again, I quite agree with Mark on the matter of headings. In many hymnals, I've seen a single word description of the season on the lower exterior corner of the page and this can be helpful when flipping through the hymnal to delineate the hymns to the eye if choosing to use a non-indexical method of searching. The placement of the headers in the current edition is very prominent and contains more text than what is needed to accomplish this purpose. I think that your recommendations of liturgical placement can be useful to the busy music director, but I think they would be most helpful when included in an index.

    Regarding my comments vis-a-vis "rubrics," I am quite interested in the hymnal precisely because of its inclusion of the antiphon texts. My comment meant to highlight my opinion that the rubrical sounding nature of the instructions contradicts the clarity with which the hymnal preferences the texts of the antiphons. Indeed, the concept of this hymnal will, I think, prove to be a force with which to be reckoned, and I hope for the highest quality possible in such a noble project.

    One other point that I'm not aware has been discussed - is it possible to provide purchasers of the hymnal with a year (or several year) calendar for the feast in the three-year cycle to which the calendar date corresponds (sort of like the small ordos provided for the LOH)?

    For example:
    May 8, 2011 - 3rd Sunday of Easter, Year A
    May 15, 2011 - 4th Sunday of Easter, Year A
    etc.

    Such a calendar could perhaps be tacked to the inside cover so that the user would know exactly which page to look at for the readings and antiphon texts and could be changed at the beginning of the new year. I know that in my parish we do not hand out the bulletin before Mass (lest people miss the homily for reading the church news) and thus do not have a discreet (i.e. non-verbal announcement) method for announcing that it is, for example, the 21st Sunday in Ordinary time, year A. Certainly I can make such a calendar myself, but I'm wondering if other parishes mightn't be in need of the same thing. Priests and congregants are used to throw-away missals that identify the day with a calendar date followed by the liturgical feast and might find always knowing the current feastday a bit bothersome (even if doing so would be good for the soul...)

    JD
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,514
    "...so that the user would know exactly which page to look at..."

    This can be addressed (as in the Catholic Community Hymnal) by numbering the pericopes instead of using page numbers: with a hymn board there is no need for announcements at all. I do think separate numbers for the sequences are good, though.

    JMO, I hope there is a more systematic proofing than all of us starting at the front before giving up on all that scrolling! I do have a question about why you chose that particular form of the tune NUN DANKET, which does not entirely agree with either Mendelssohn's or JSB's version.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 108:
    verse 2: "jubilation" needs a hyphen at the line break.
    verse 3: To capitalize "sacred" here looks like an idiosyncrasy. (I think it's a habit of Jeff's.)
    (What is the source for verse 3?)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 109:
    verse 4: The word "nobler" is broken as "nobl-er". I recommend "no-bler".
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 115:

    verse 3: "white-robed" should be hyphenated, but isn't.
    verse 5: "Thou has" should be "Thou hast".
    verse 6: The verse number "6." should be aligned with the text.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 116:

    verse 1:
    (1) "abroad,and" should have a space after the comma.
    (2) "His" is capitalized; this is not consistent with the practice in other hymns.

    verse 2-3:
    (3) "thy" is sometimes capitalized, sometimes not. "Thee" and "Thou" are capitalized.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,067
    Jeff,

    As an addendum to what Mark and Jenny are saying, have you a copy of Worship III nearby? Two things about it that I found superior to any other Catholic hymnal: 1) the seasonal descriptors on each page are VERY discreet (actually on the side of the page closest to the binding!); 2) the indexes are complete! This would be the place for the advisories for communion hymns, etc. (aka a topical and liturgical index) I can't tell you (also) how crucial a scriptural index to the hymn tunes is, in addition to (of course) tunes, composers, metrical index, etc. The scriptural index is also very educational: one can instantly see the liturgical context in which something might be appropriate.

    For example, take Wesley's "Christ the Lord is Ris'n Today". It is astounding how artfully he combines scriptural quotes to make up a coherent verse in the hymn (see citations here: http://www.hymnary.org/hymn/PsH/388). If one is going to have hymnody in a Mass, I think this is at least an important idea to think. Sometimes it's a stretch, but having "Lift High the Cross" as the entrance hymn for Holy Thursday is better than something random that has no relation at all to the introit.

    A final idea: perhaps if the context headings are that important to you (and you'd like to retain them in the current mode) then you could make an "accompaniment editioN" or something like that targeted to the music directors. It could have all that information and yet allow a pew resource to look less cluttered. You could also put descants and other useful things in the accomp. edition.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 117:
    verse 1: the hyphen at the start of line 2 is not needed.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 118:
    The author's name is Hellriegel (note spelling).

    verse 3: The comma after "sing" interrupts the phrase; you're better off dropping it.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Yes, Jeff. There is some criticism of the headers in your draft hymnal.

    It would probably be less if the headers were smaller (in font size) and more discreetly placed (bottom of the page, or at the inside margin).

    A tip: Worship II has no headers, and provides a model of simplicity.
  • The original text of the hymn, "O God, Our Help", was "Our God, Our Help in Ages Past". It was John Wesley who changed Isaac Watts' poetry. I would urge that the Vatican II hymnal restore the original text. A few daring hymn books have done so. That one word changes the entire slant of the text. The great hymnologist, Erik Routley, was a strong advocate for this correction.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,423
    Perhaps Wesley was right to do this? O God, Our Help is a versification/paraphrase of Psalm 90, which begins simply "Lord." in the vocative.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I appreciate all this info.

    In light of these helpful comments, it definitely seems appropriate to "shrink" the size of the headers.

    God bless !
  • TCJ
    Posts: 813
    One thing I didn't notice...

    Do you have a note from the editor? It seems most hymnals have something of the sort and I think it'd be nice to have the goal set right on the first page or something for anyone who picks it up and reads it.
  • Regarding "Our God, Our Help in Ages Past": John Wesley altered the text for his Collection of Psalms and Hymns (1738), and made a few more revisions for his 1780 hymnal, A Collection of Hymns for the Use of the People Called Methodists.

    The most noticeable change was to substitute “O” for the original “Our” in the opening line. Wesley felt that “Our” was a possessive adjective referring to the Calvinist doctrine of election. The Wesleyan all-inclusive perspective was satisfied by changing “Our” to the more ambiguous “O.”

    While satisfying a theological problem for Wesley, the substitution of “O” for “Our” in the first line destroys the wonderful anaphora of the first stanza—repeating the same word at the beginning of each phrase (Erik Routley)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,423
    True, the repetition at the beginning of each line is gone. The theological gain seems to me to override that concern, as does the scriptural concern I mentioned above. Personally I think the use of possessive adjectives is overdone. God is not only the God of the elect, and not one among many, but is THE God.

    Often, I think, the possessive adjective is tossed in to add a metrically necessary weak stress. This is never a good enough reason for a word. Certainly Watts has better reasons than this.

    In the Old Testament, "our" God, which is a common expression, makes more sense. Our nation's God, Israel would say, is higher than the other nations' gods. A Calvinist's reasons would be different. They would be thinking of an election based on double predestination, which Catholic as well as Episcopal/Methodist theology cannot accept.

    The "our" is in the first line in the third position. Does this carry the Routleyian resonance far enough to be acceptable?
  • I don't know if this is intentional or not, but the header graphic before each Sunday with the letter of the cycle year changes starting the first Sunday in Ordinary Time. Everything prior to that is scrolled, but starting with oridnary time, the A, B, and Cs are a different font.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 119:

    verse 2:
    (1) The hyphen between "ever joyful" is not wrong, but it's not necessary either; FWIW, Winkworth didn't have it.
    (2) No diaeresis on "bless-ed".

    verse 3:
    (3) "The Son and Holy Ghost" -- what's the source for this version of the line? Winkworth has "The Son, and Him who reigns / With them in highest heaven"
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 122:

    verse 2:
    (1) The author's original version, used by many hymnals, has "Blooming meadow" and also "Chanting bird and flowing fountain". See page 232.

    verse 4:
    (2) The comma after "Ever singing" can be dropped, and it would be a good idea: there's no need for the singers to pause at that point.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 123:

    Capitalization of "Him", "His", etc., is not consistent with the pattern followed in preceding pages (which generally don't capitalize pronouns referring to God).
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 124:

    From what source does this version of the text come? It's unfamiliar at several points, and one English verse is missing (between "Wisdom" and "thou Rod").

    verse 3:
    (1) The verb "orders" should agree with "thou": "who ord'rest all things"
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 125:

    verse 1:
    (1) Please use the fancy left- and right-quotation marks. For example: “Christ is nigh,” instead of "Christ is nigh,"

    verse 4:
    (2) Typo: "Shrounding"
    (3) Typo: an unnecessary comma after "defender"
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 126:

    verse 1:
    (1) It's probably best to use a capital V in "virgin's Son".
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 128:

    verse 2:

    (1) No comma after "Late in time".

    (2) "A" or "The"? The text here has "Offspring of a virgin's womb", but it surprises me. I'm used to "offspring of the Virgin's womb", an expression which is certainly appropriate for a Catholic hymnal.

    Hymns Ancient and Modern Revised says "a", and from what I find on the net, Wesley probably wrote "a". On the other side, The Hymnal 1940 and Worship II have "the". What do readers think?

    verse 4:

    (3) Verse 4 is strange: "Bruise in us the serpent's head". It also rhymes "join" and "Thine". Maybe if you're Cockney that works. However.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 129:

    verse 1:
    (1) "faith-ful" needs a hyphen.

    verses 5-6:
    (2) I wonder about the accent marks in the Latin verses. While they are not part of the Latin text, they are added in liturgical books to indicate the correct placement of the word accent. I've never seen them used in hymnals.

    verse 6:
    (3) Add a comma after "genitum".

    music for verses 4-6:
    (4) On "Jesus, to Thee be glory giv'n": the notes on "thee" need a slur. The notes on "be" could use a dotted slur, similar to those used in Hymn 133.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes on Hymn 130:

    (1) Again, this hymn capitalizes "Him" and "His", but some of the hymns don't follow that practice. It's good to set a policy and keep to it.

    verse 1:
    (2) It is conventional to punctuate the text as: "Joy to the world! the Lord is come: Let earth receive her King;" and similarly in v. 2.

    verse 2:
    (3) Punctuate the last phrase as in verse 1: "Repeat, repeat the sounding joy." (Only one comma is needed.)

    verse 3:
    (4) Punctuate the last phrase as in verse 1: "Far as, far as the curse is found." (Only one comma is needed.)

    verse 4:
    (5) "The world" seems to be run together. If possible, it would be good to have a space between the two words, if your engraving software allows for it.

    (6) Punctuate the last phrase as in verse 1: "And wonders, wonders of his love." (Only one comma is needed.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Notes for Hymn 131:

    verse 2:
    (1) "bless-ed": no diaeresis.

    verse 3:
    (2) "rejoiced", "blessed": no diaeresis.

    (3) Troublesome text: "And went to Bethlehem straightway" is a mouthful. Given that verse 3 also tries to rhyme "much in mind" with "storm and wind", it may be best to drop the verse.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Anybody else want to comb through these pages for a while? I've got finals coming up. :-)
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 311
    I find the layout of the hymns to be so problematic that I feel participating further would be counter-productive. There are other matters of taste I'd quibble over here and there (like the unhelpful bar lines in the responsorial psalms); but, by and large, everything else in the hymnal is spot on. If future editions come out that have hymns in conventional notation, I'll be all over it like white on rice.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,900
    Speaking of conventional notation, it took me a while to notice that there are no time signatures on the hymns.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 311
    That's a pretty good indicator that time signatures aren't really necessary.
  • Liz1966
    Posts: 1
    "with a hymn board there is no need for announcements at all."

    Richard, I have to say, I don't know where you are, but I wish you could talk to our choirmaster, we have a hymnboard, and he announces everything anyway. Your parish is lucky they have someone that knows they don't need to!

    On to now having time to look at the hymnal!
  • David DeavyDavid Deavy
    Posts: 105
    JMO

    Will there be a Pew and Choir version with four part harmony of the hymns?

    I am making suggestions for My parish choir to the Music Director, and he want to insure the Hymns are four part.

    Thanks,

    David Deavy
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,601
    Catholics like consistency. Announcing hymns is a disruption to the liturgy. When it is time to sing and there is no announcement and no one flailing their arms, Catholics get confused. Why are we not being told which page to turn to? Why are they not flailing their arms? No one around me seems to be singing. I suppose that this is just something the choir or cantor is supposed to sing.

    Stop all the extraneous and useless human interaction which disturbs the liturgy, post all the pages for music and liturgy on a wall board or better, yet on a piece of paper they can hold in their hands.

    If people read during the homily it is because what they are reading is of more interest of them than the homily is. That's not the fault of the reading material.

    People in protestant churches rely upon bulletins. Catholics are maligned by parishes who are cheap and rude enough to just let visitors and newcomers sit and not know what to do next. If you can pass out paper that tells when the friday fish fry is held...is a fish fry more important than Mass?