Hymn list for Worship IV [link to PDF]
  • Hmm...

    Well, the good news is it looks like the Mass of Creation Gloria isn't in it.

    The bad news is, overall, Worship has become RitualSong. They've eliminated the RitualSong genre of hymnals and renamed it Worship. The exclusively traditional hymnal of GIA is extinct.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,451
    Sing a New Church---wha???
  • It certainly looks like The St. Michael Hymnal will be the de facto successor to Worship III — at least for those churches that do not see a need for lectionary-based psalmody in their hymnal.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    I just don't understand anymore. Why on earth would you need 8 different settings for the Eucharistic Acclamations. (And that's assuming the full Mass settings don't have them, then it's 16.)

    Also, I'd think that any parish attached to Worship-style music as it was previously defined at least would want at least two Latin chant ordinaries. Looks like there's maybe one, plus a chant Gloria.

    There are two Magnificats, but no Benedictus it seems?

    If I had one THAXTED, I'd want it to be "O God Beyond All Praising", but if I had room for three like this hymnal, I'd want (perhaps controversially) one of them to be "I Vow to Thee My Country".
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,451
    Here's Gather:

  • There are two Magnificats, but no Benedictus it seems?

    From the PDF, "It does not include a complete listing of service music, ritual music, or music for the Liturgy of the Hours."

    Why on earth would you need 8 different settings for the Eucharistic Acclamations.

    My parish rotates through 7-8 mass settings over the course of a three year period, changing seasonally. As they've put some settings in that are less in the style of "Worship", I'm pleased they included so many. I am very disappointed to see the Mass for the City omitted, though. The revision is quite nice.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    How behind the times is GIA?? Do they not realize how outdated the 70s pseudo-folk style is? Yes, there's still HEAVY demand for it right now, but there is a clear change in the Church, and GIA wants no part in it, I guess.

    I happily note that the "Holy Name" Gloria of Dr. Norah Duncan IV is in there. Whatever one may think of his more widely known compositions, this one is quite solid (actually, as are most of his other compositions.)
  • Lots and lots by Herman G. Stuempfle, Jr. (42 hymns!), Delores Dufner, OSB (30 hymns), and Carl P. Daw (17 hymns)- evidently tied to the Sunday gospels. Does anybody sing these once-a-year (or every three years) hymns? (Ever heard "Silence! Frenzied Unclean Spirit"?) I never saw these used in the half dozen churches where I've worked that had Worship III. The awkward didacticism was a turn-off - not to mention the often strange and unfamiliar tunes.

    There's also the unfortunate habit of using well-known tunes strongly associated with certain texts with new texts - e.g. LAUDA ANIMA ("Praise My Soul the King of Heaven") with "We are Known and Not Unnumbered" or "Dwellers in the Holy City" or "Christ the Way We're Called to Follow"; FOUNDATION ("How Firm a Foundation") with "The Baptist Bore Witness" and "God Made from One Blood"; KINGSFOLD ("I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say") is used no less than seven times; HYMN TO JOY ("Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee") five times (including a setting of the text "Fishermen are Sailing Homeward"). They were working much too hard with ST. ANNE ("O God, Our Help in Ages Past"), pairing it with three different texts, all by Herman Stuempfle. "The Blind Man Sat Beside the Road," or "Lord, Grant Us Grace to Know the Time," or "Lord Help Us Walk your Servant Way." Even SINE NOMINE ("For All the Saints") isn't spared ("Give Thanks for Life.")

    Of course, reusing hymn tunes is a venerable practice, but tunes so firmly tied to other texts should be used very sparingly, in my opinion. At the very least the new texts should be of the same or similar type (praise, petition, etc) as the traditional text. The new concoctions can sound pretty awkward, to say the least - like singing "Go Make of All Disciples" to the tune of "O Sacred head Surrounded" or "To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King" to Greensleeves.

    On the other hand I see very few tunes that weren't already in Worship III. (At least they're not overestimating the ability of the average Catholic congregation?) Too bad - there are many great ones out there.

    Sam Schmitt
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,686
    You mean we can just use KINGSFOLD every week with a different text for 7 weeks?

    Or we could make two four-hymn-sandwiches using only KINGSFOLD and only have to repeat a text once!

    Too much of a tune is overkill and destroys the tune for the choir first and then for the congregation.

    See Land of Rest Acclamations for an example of overkill.
  • Anyone vote to petition GIA to bring back Worship II? I nearly choked when I saw "Alabare" on the list. That is perhaps one of the worst Spanish-language songs around (after "Vamos Cantando al Senor", "Pescador de Hombres", "Juntos Como Hermanos" and "Santa Maria del Camino"). Sadly, "Gather Us In" and the rest of the Haugen-Haas tripe is still in there. What is worse is that GIA also scraped from the bottom of the OCP barrel.

    I almost wish that we could PDFs of the songs that we like and then assemble our own hymnals.
  • "70s pseudo-folk" or "faux-pop" or whatever you want to call it is certainly dated. But so is "neo-Cecilian." I'm not ready to stamp that label on anything just yet, but I'm seeing signs of it in alternative repertories. Familiarity with authentic Gregorian Chant and "golden age" polyphony will help us remain grounded, but I hope we can avoid some of the deadends of the past as we seek paths of continuity. One touchstone of continuity (for composers especially) may be to try to tap into the spirit of those who were leading the parent organizations of CMAA around the time of its founding. This was a time of moving beyond ritual and musical fundamentalism, of rediscovering "authentic" inherited repertoires, and of lifting up of the best musical art that could be brought to bear in the celebration of the sacred mysteries. Granted, congregational singing poses a significant challenge to high artistic aspirations. But let's look at the efforts of really competent composers at the "point of rupture" who were experimenting with the Missa cum populo genre (and those who promoted them, like Dr. Marier). It is also not too early to begin study of the voluminous oeuvre of Richard Proulx...a "bridge" like no other, in my opinion.

    I know there are a few young composers emerging of such calibre, but they appear to be sequestered in ghettos. Perhaps Jeffrey Tucker's new world order of a commission-based economy and free distribution will come to pass and give rise to a real renaissance. In the meantime, GIA's problem is that Richard Proulx is no longer with us. This is not just a weakness for them, but evidence of a larger lacuna. The passing of a few giants at a critical moment in history, and catalogue after catologue of new Mass settings across the spectrum falling short in terms of craft or inspiration (or both)...leads me to wonder what it will take to replenish the stable of gifted composers of sacred music.

    Hmm...probably musicians reared on great music of the past, educated in music to levels analogous to other academic disciplines, steeped in the liturgical and sacramental life of the church. Perhaps some organization could commission a longitudinal study of career and vocational paths and professional achievement of graduates of Catholic choir schools (e.g. Salt Lake, Boston, Toronto) to make a case for an institutional commitment to education in sacred music that begins before graduate school.
  • Surely this is a joke??!!! No one will buy it.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,161
    It would seem that this book is a compromise that will serve no one in an attempt to serve everyone.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,836
    I have some choir copies of Worship II and still use music from them for the choir to sing. I also have RitualSong for choir and congregation that was purchased by my predecessor. RS has that same annoying tendency toward multiple texts for familiar hymns. It always bothered me that they left so many good hymns out to have, for example, so many texts to "Ode to Joy."

    The next hymnals we buy will not come from GIA. Worship IV is a step backward, not forward.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    My parish rotates through 7-8 mass settings over the course of a three year period, changing seasonally. As they've put some settings in that are less in the style of "Worship", I'm pleased they included so many.

    I absolutely see the need for 7-8 Mass settings. But they seem to have included 8 Eucharistic Acclamations (Dying you destroyed our death) etc., w/o the accompanying Mass settings. I don't see why one would need so many of those as stand alones.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I just saw this.

    The Gather Hymnal Redux;


    I hope some people enjoy it.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Oh, never mind. I just found that it is already posted by Mr. Keith Fraser in chant cafe.
  • I already see inclusive language in the titles. No thanks.
  • I almost wish that we could PDFs of the songs that we like and then assemble our own hymnals.

    You can...it's not that big of a deal - and affordable to publish.
  • I see that they reworked the John Lee Congregational Mass Gloria. I hope they make this one available a là carte…
  • I just sent GIA a correspondance regarding the hymnal. I pointed out that the MASS FOR THE CITY would be a worthy addition and I also commented on some issues of hymn tunes being unfamiliar and unsingable.

    It appears that this list is PRELIMINARY; perhaps if enough of us say something, we can effect change.
  • I will call GIA and echo your request for Mass for the City, which I agree is very nice.
  • PGA:

    Do you mind sharing their email address?
  • Benedictgal:

    I did not use e-mail. When you go to their website, www.giamusic.com, there is a tab at the bottom that says "Contact us". You fill out a form with your real name, phone number, etc., and you can type comments in at the bottom. It is then forwarded to customer service.
  • Here is the text of the email that I sent to GIA:

    Dear Mr. Anderson:

    Someone had posted a PDF of the proposed contents for the fourth edition of the Worship hymnal. Having read through it, I do have some serious concerns about the content. The Worship hymnal has enjoyed a reputation of having solid music (with some minor exceptions and some glaring "inclusive" language revisions and other edits that have actually watered down some of the hymns). However, what GIA proposes to include (and, in some cases, maintain) in this particular edition are cause for concern.

    I direct your attention to Sacramentum Caritatis No. 42;

    Liturgical song
    42. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that "the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love" (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything -- texts, music, execution -- ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

    In my opinion, there are some selections that, unfortunately, would fall under the category of "generic improvisation". In addition, these questionable pieces involve the "introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy". In the words of Pope Benedict XVI, these "should be avoided".

    These are the songs that I believe do not meet the test presented in SC No. 42:

    Amazing Grace (questionable theology more than anything, as it promotes a Calvinistic view of grace)
    Gather Us In
    Glory and Praise to Our God
    Here I Am, Lord
    I Danced in the Morning (singificantly waters down the sacred Paschal Mystery and is somewhat heretical)
    One Bread, One Body
    Pan de Vida
    Pescador de Hombres
    We are Many Parts
    We Remember

    Three of these come from Marty Haugen, one of your staff composers. Gather Us In. We are Many Parts and We Remember not only have a musical genre that does not quite respect the meaning of the liturgy, they also water down significantly the sacred mysteries that unfold before us at every Mass. In We Remember, Mr. Haugen refers to the litrgy as a simple meal, when it is more than that, it is both the Holy Sacrifice and the Sacred Banquet. Gather Us In is more a celebration of the community than a hymn of praise. It is as though the community is doing everything, especially in the second verse of the song. We are Many Parts also places undue emphasis on the role of the faithful and makes them the principle actor, when the focus and the orientation should be on Christ. While Pescador de Hombres also places undue emphasis on the individual, it is also, sadly, misused as a Communion song when the piece has nothing to do with the Holy Eucharist.

    Amazing Grace is based on a false Calvinist theology concerning salvation. It is not consistent with Catholic theology. Just because other Catholic publishers include this song in their collections, that does not necessarily justify its use for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The songs to be included for the Mass need to accurately reflect Catholic teaching as well as the Church's sacramental and liturgical theology.

    Alabare has musicality that is not consistent with the sacred nature of the Mass. The same holds true for most of the selections. Sadly, they sound more along the lines of pop songs that were in vogue at the time that these pieces were written. Here I Am, Lord has a tune that sounds, oddly enough, as though it could be merged with the theme from a 1970s situation comedy. One Bread, One Body also sounds like pop music that was popular in the 1970s.

    I Danced in the Morning has serious theological issues that border on heresy. It makes light of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of the Lord. It is something that, in my opinion, has no real place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

    Perhaps GIA should use some of the writings of the Supreme Pontiffs as benchmarks by which to measure the music that is presented for publication. The Venerable Pope John Paul II certainly makes some very concrete observations. Please note what he writes in his Chirograph on Sacred Music:

    "4. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, "sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action"[11]. For this very reason, "not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold", my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that "if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious"[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category "sacred music" has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

    St Pius X's reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able "to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church's faith"[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

    5. Another principle, affirmed by St Pius X in the Motu Proprio Tra le Sollecitudini and which is closely connected with the previous one, is that of sound form. There can be no music composed for the celebration of sacred rites which is not first of all "true art" or which does not have that efficacy "which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her Liturgy the art of musical sounds"[15].

    Even as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI made a very strong case for care in particular styles of music. In his book, The Spirit of the Liturgy, he writes that:

    On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. "Rock", on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit's sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.

    The settings for the Mass are also cause for concern. While I applaud GIA's inclusion of the ICEL settings, I question the reasoning behind repeated insistence on the use of a responsorial Gloria. The Gloria was never meant to be sung in a responsorial manner. Furthermore, the excessive musical introductions to some of the Mass settings make me wonder if your composers are putting the liturgy in the service of the music when it should be the other way around. I would suggest that perhaps GIA might look into using the setting that McMillan composed for use during the Holy Father's visit to the UK in September 2010. The setting is called "Mass for Blessed John Henry Newman". It is excellent music and certainly befitting of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

    Even though, perhaps, you could make the case that we have Sing to the Lord, the entire document is only binding when it cites what the Holy See has promulgated, since "SttL" does not have the recognitio of the Holy See.

    GIA, in my opinion, has always been superior to OCP in many respects. However, when GIA starts including some of the OCP songs into their books, it does, in my opinion, lessen the quality of the music your company is offering to parishes. Even within your own composers, I do find some instances where perhaps a study of Sacramentum Caritatis No. 42 would also be in order.

    Mr. Anderson, I do not have any formal training in liturgy. However, I have read the documents of the Holy See and the authoritative writings of the Supreme Pontiffs, inclusive of the Motu Propio of St. Pius X, wherein the saintly pope faced a situation in music that is not unlike what we are seeing today.

    Thank you for your kindness in reading this rather lengthy letter. Please know that I care deeply about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the form of music that is used for it. The law of prayer is the law of belief. The music used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should reflect this essential truth. May God bless you.
  • Thank you for taking time to write this letter.
  • You're welcome! I hope that Mr. Anderson will take the time to read it.
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    I received a response from GIA and I do not know what to make of it:

    I would like to take this time to thank you for sharing your concerns in both your email letter and voice mail that I received in the past week.

    I will pass your comments along to the various hymnal committees.

    Your comments are certainly representative of the diversity of opinion that is present in our church today.

    I would very much be interested in learning some of your favorite hymn texts that you find appropriate for the Sacred Liturgy. Is there a particular musical resource that you have found useful?

    I welcome your comments.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,428
    I got almost the exact same response last year when I wrote an email to Wrigley's complaining about their unannounced "improvement" to Double Mint gum.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Probably purloined from one of the
    "Standard Reference Books like these" mentioned at timestamp 7:25 ...

  • Anyone ever heard of the Bedbug Letter?

  • According to GIA's newest catalog, it looks as if Mass for the City has made the cut and will be in Worship IV.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I don't know if this will interest anyone, but here is a PDF INDEX of the VATICAN II HYMNAL


    Click here to learn more about the Vatican II Hymnal  • 750 pages long • Complete Readings for all Sundays and Feasts (Years A, B, and C) • First Hymnal to contain Complete Texts for the Sung Propers • More than a hundred pages of Mass Settings (Roman Missal, 3rd Edition) • Complete texts in Latin and English for Ordinary & Extraordinary Forms of the Mass • Beautiful Hymns, including more than 100 pages of Communion Hymns • Responsorial Psalms, Alleluias, Motets, and much more • The all new Vatican II Hymnal
  • Excellent to see, JMO. Just to check, am I reading correctly that the hymnal does not contain the texts of the Eucharistic Prayers for Reconciliation, for Various Needs, and for Children?
  • benedictgal--Hoo-rah! You rock. Too bad they see it as only 'part of the diversity of opinion' and not as a well-reasoned argument in favor of doing what the Church asks.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,046
    I am happy to report, Mark, that they are not included. From what I hear, the kiddie EPs are not in the new Missal at all.
  • Well, the current Children's EPs will remain in force and usable after November until, eventually, new translations of them are released, though I understand not wanting the current translations in this missal. Mostly I was curious about the Reconciliation and Various Needs EPs, since I thought the missal was going to contain the complete texts of the order of Mass.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,345
    The kiddies ditties, i believe, are controversial and may be eliminated all together. Has anyone else heard this?

    Good work, Benedictgal... I have also written and complained about hymns like "Make of Our Hands a Throne" and other works that tout how we "live in darkness", as though that is where we belong. We have to keep doing this until it is resolved.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,407
    Make a Hands a Throne was practically mandated by the diocese of Detroit. I cannot think of a hymn with worse theology.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,070
    I second the comments immediately above. The song obviously has an agenda. If someone made a song called, "Make of my tongue a home" or something crazy like that, I'd shoot it down, too! Talk about making communion a battleground!

    Great if the additional Eucharistic prayers and children's ones are gone from the missal, too: they are prime examples of the "hermeneutic of rupture"...
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,407
    Bruce L Thanks for your comment...
    I would really like to know how this communion in the hand got started. I cannot believe it was something desired by the fathers of Vatican II. Even the Methodists don't have communion in the hand...and they have altar rails too!