Comparison of different Responsorial Psalms (VIDEO) • Respond & Acclaim
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Friends,

    For some time now, folks have been asking for a comparison video that shows why Chabanel Psalms are different than other Responsorial Psalms.

    Therefore, in honor of our brand new (YEAR A) book release [ Nov. 2010, in print!!! ], I have created a brief video.

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    As you can hear, I took some random samples of the MOST POPULAR Responsorial Psalms (Respond & Acclaim, Glory & Praise, Michel Guimont, etc.) and I then contrasted these with several Chabanel settings of the same Psalm.

    The singing is far from perfect, but hopefully it suffices to (basically) show how each melody sounds.

    It will probably come as no surprise that I believe that chant (with its modality & free rhythm) is much more suited to the Sacred Liturgy than Major-minor, rhythmically-composed, rhythmically-driven pieces.

    I must tell you that it's worth watching the video for the simple reason that you get to hear me sing the following . . . .

    :-)

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    To learn more, please visit: ccwatershed.org/psalms
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    That... was... awesome.
  • Of course, some of those composers can sit there and say, "Well, I could have written chant psalms, but that's not what I was paid to do."

    And they were not. It takes someone who is doing it because he or she wants to do it as it is done without regard for commercial appeal, but rather because of a conviction that this IS the way it is to be done.

    All, please take time and listen to the entire video and then take it and use with with your pastor and congregation.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Wow: I think I'm gonna make a ringtone out of Jeff singing that antiphon!

    Well, maybe not. I'd have to pay the publisher.
    ;-)
  • thank you for this
  • With those accustomed to Spirit & Song, Respond & Acclaim without accompaniment sounds very similar to the Chabanel Psalms.
  • Now that is an interesting video. Very fair, I would say. And seeing this with text after text you begin to understand some of the issues here.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I found the video to be quite interesting. And it's thought-provoking to hear all these without accompaniment, as you can judge just the nature of the words in combination with the melody.

    Of course, composers might complain that their music isn't written to be unaccompanied and that adding parts makes it richer. Fair enough. But the chant can also be accompanied, though probably not with drums and guitars. ;-)
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    I might argue, too, that those "other" psalms weren't meant to be sung with a voice as nice as Jeffrey's. There's something oddly incongruent with such a beautiful sound paired with such pedestrian melodies. Correspondingly, with the Chabanel settings, there's beauty all around.
  • I respect Jeff all the more for not adding affectation to the non-Chabanel settings, the Cortez notwithstanding.
    I wonder, given my skepticism over whether a toehold will ever be provided such monumental efforts of Jeff MO, Adam, Frs. Weber and Kelly, and Richard Rice by the publishing monopolies, a recognitio by some impeccable editor within their ranks and employ.
    Could the solution to this impossible dream lie in a coordinated publishing effort that would compile:
    A. Corpus Christi Watershed projects
    B. Simple English Propers
    C. PBC
    D. PBEH
    E. Weber/Kelly/Rice addendums

    into a single pew/choir/organ/(dare I suggest) leadsheet accompaniment volume? Something that WE could present our local PTB as the honorable solution to "alius cantus aptus?"
    I also suggest that if some consortium among the above project proponets actually materializes, a both/and or either/or Spanish language compilation could attend the massive project.

    Media delivery to the PIPs will be of utmost concern to pastors/celebrants. And common sense suggests that RC bishops/pastors/churches will not ever pervasively consider visual projection, and weekly Order of Music leaflets won't be accepted by same as a viable alternative either. So, we have to give them a book. That is mandated by both common sense and respect, and generally by the direction of celebrants who literally want everyone on the (same) page.

    I also think that with Lulu and other print possibilities, the concept I articulated over at the Cafe regarding local parishes and sees to "craft" their own boutique worship book within the auspices of CMAA. Unity and diversity could be a great "selling" point to wary decision makers.

    And such a volume could also be defended as not impinging upon the large publishing houses' right to market new product with which local musicians could augment their weekly repertoire choices as they see fit within the legislation of Musica Sacram and the GIRM.

    And with such a volume in hand, CMAA could set up shop and a booth at NPM events so righteously it hurts to think about it.
    Something to ponder.
  • Charles, this is the dream of many of us who are working on projects. It is affordable and possible. I've built two sample hymnals as test machines to determine what decisions are necessary myself and Chabanel has given me permission to include psalms that are appropriate.

    Liturgical churches that respect people print a weekly worship aid. And the higher the level of solemnity, the more complete these tend to be. These are more valuable than many think - for example a comment about the liturgy in Rome yesterday offered a link to the program - and this, once downloaded, becomes another step in justifying what liturgy can be.

    At this moment my wife is directing the choir and playing the organ for an Episcopal congregation. They have a very complete hymnal AND a program in their hands that tells them exactly which page to be on with clear directions for their participation in the liturgy. "CLEAR DIRECTIONS" are totally lacking in almost all Catholic churches. A number board carries less information than an exit sign on I-75. For people to truly participate they need something in their hands that serves as a guide to using the hymnbook that day.

    Of course, it will cost money. But it has the potential to increase the income of the church. The more people participate in the program the more they participate. Why are priests against this? The often say that they don't want to look out during their homily and see people reading a bulletin. That's not the fault of the bulletin!

    We have all seen liturgies with many non-Catholics in attendance where a clear bulletin with the liturgy in it would have been a means of evangelization. Instead they find themselves confused and feeling left out. Catholic funerals are the worst examples of this, though there are a few parishes where this has been remedied. The hymnbook is needed. Promoting a program of worship in hand makes it effective.

    [edited to improve paragraphization]
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I appreciate all your comments very much.

    I would like to respond to this, if I may:

    Of course, composers might complain that their music isn't written to be unaccompanied and that adding parts makes it richer. Fair enough. But the chant can also be accompanied.


    Carl, I'm fairly certain you're aware of this, but "just for the record," perhaps the distinguishing factor (in my view) of the Chabanel Psalms is their organ accompaniment. We even devoted many pages at the front of the 180-page organist booklet to re-printing the "theoretical principles" behind the Chabanel psalms, as articulated by Van Nuffel (of NOH fame). View the entire 180-page book here.

    That being said, I have come to believe that truly "acceptable" melodies are not reliant on accompaniment. This is my belief.

    So, if I have "pulled the rug out from under" the other melodies, I did the exact same to the Chabanel melodies.

    Besides, I know for a fact that many people sing the Chabanel Psalms without any accompaniment (for various reasons). I would not feel good about myself if I composed melodies that only sounded good with accompaniment. I'm fairly certain that all the Chabanel composers feel the same.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I respect Jeff all the more for not adding affectation to the non-Chabanel settings, the Cortez notwithstanding.


    Not to open up a can of worms here, Charles, but I did sing the Cortez correctly, right? (I'm dead serious when I ask this.)
  • It is more difficult to write a melody that does not rely upon accompaniment. But melodies written in this manner can be sung with accompaniment, as Jeff O has said. Much of what I prefer to call poor or bad music that is sung in Catholic churches today in not singable without accompaniment. And this is why so many Catholic churches are populated by people who do not sing, since the accompaniments rarely provides sufficient support to the singer.

    But take a melody that is singable without accompaniment and is consistent, meaning abandoning the ridiculous practice of verses that are varied in rhythm - and it succeeds with or often in spite of accompaniment.

    Imposing rhythm upon the words that distorts the spoken flow of the language then adds to the mess.

    Churches were built with flying buttresses for a reason. Church music was once composed for a reason. We have lost all reason and it is time to recover it.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Much of what I prefer to call poor or bad music that is sung in Catholic churches today in not singable without accompaniment.


    I agree. Here's a 2005 article I wrote about that subject, giving numerous examples. (Gee whiz, I hope I still agree with everything I wrote in that article . . .)
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I have mixed feelings about accompaniment. We do all our chant a capella, if only because my skills at the organ are less than pitiful. And there's no question that many modern settings of the Responsorial or Alleluia require accompaniment to sound good, so we sing selections off the Chabanel website or even (heaven forbid!) something I compose myself.

    Of course, I've heard comments like: "We need the congregation to sing more! Maybe accompaniment would encourage them to do that!" Fortunately, I have a great excuse, but I also find that doing everything a capella is more prayerful and, well, special. I don't think it SHOULD sound like all the other Masses.

    But I understand that it's a matter of taste. Most people, in our parish at least, want to have lots of singing and lots of sound. Which leads to instruments and amplification. Heaven help us if we have to have a SPOKEN Sunday Mass, people might totally melt down.
  • "We need the congregation to sing more! Maybe accompaniment would encourage them to do that!" is such BS, to use the farming term. (just got in from rolling round bales off the truck across some mud.)

    People will sing melodies that are singable and that are memorable, melodies that follow the words and are specifically not written to be "catchy".

    Since chant uses a limited number of intervals, one chant learned leads to another and another....
  • Oh, Jeff MO, you sang the Cortez immaculately. How you managed to do that, OTOH, is a thing that escapes my understanding. And I really don't want to bust Jaime's chops, he's a very congenial gentleman, it's just that example was the most sing-songy by comparison. Maybe it benefits in real practice with accompaniment; which says something right there....
  • As somebody largely coming from outside this world, I need to say that most of those psalms weren't bad as music. They just didn't sound like sacred music. The Chabanel Psalms do.

    There's nothing intrinsic to the Responsorial Psalm that necessitates that it suck; it just usually does. And the central problem is not style, but that the music doesn't generally engage with the text. I'm not talking text expression so much here; it would be nice to hear some, but the RP is not a Lied, and the traditional psalmody of the Church doesn't do that. I'm talking about how poorly in a technical sense most of these RPs set text. Accents are constantly misplaced in beat and register, to the point that texts are sometimes difficult to understand (which in this repertoire is epic FAIL). Jeff's psalms don't do that, partly because they aren't in a metric straightjacket.
  • JQ's hit the neume on its head.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I thought JO sang the Cortez piece wonderfully. I was impressed by how good it sounded.

    The video had some interesting side-effect possibilities, not the least of which being:
    -Assuming you HAVE to sing one of those pop-infused responsorials, how do you sing it in a manner consistent with the character of Roman liturgy.
    The Cortez piece (And some of the others, too) sound great with piano and guitars and drums and flutes and ethnic percussion and all of that, but not necessarily "liturgically appropriate."
    But Jeff's singing illustrates how one can sing those pieces in a way that (almost) makes them work for solemn liturgy.
    As good as the Chabanel settings or serious Gregorian chant? Of course not.
    Way better than praise band responsorial psalms? Heck yeah!


    This was also particularly good for me, as my first reaction to hearing the Chabanel Psalms was, "Hm. Sounds like Respond and Accclaim."
    Of course that was with the organ accompaniments (which you all know I don't like) and without a side-by-side comparison. (So it was more like the idea and memory of R&A, not the actuality).

    This video, with the unaccompanied singing (which I greatly prefer!) and the side-by-side hearing shows that even when sung very well, Respond and Acclaim psalms fall well short of not just the IDEAL (G Chant), but also fall short of what is quite easily and readily possible.


    Anyway-
    I loved this video.

    More please.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    The Cortez would not be very easy to include in Gregorian notation . . .


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