Stupid Question....Lectionary
  • I apologize for bringing this up again:

    Where can I find the chosen lectionary:

    entrance song
    responsorial psalm
    alleluia verse
    offertory song
    communion song

    all in one place.
  • ok, might be a stupid answer. My Sacramentary has propers for Entrance and communion. No offertory. They are not the same propers as the sung propers, which are only to be found in the Graduale Romanum.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,612
    canticanova's planning section?
  • Caticanova's Liturgical Planning Page

    This page is quite useful.

    So, what about Monday - Saturday masses?


    Canticanova publications also has an excellent guide to using the Graduale Simplex.
  • Canticanova publications also has an excellent guide to using the Graduale Simplex.


    Where is it? I could not find it.

    Gratefully,
    Paul
  • Ok, now in addition to where are the Daily Propers -

    Why are there daily propers in the ordo that can be replaced with the Saints....

    Or is there an obvious answer for this that I have missed?
  • If I understand your question, Noel, it is answered in the GIRM, Chapter VII, §§352 through 367.
  • Thanks, Paul.

    This will take some study...
  • Ok, I have had time to study.

    I can see now that for the English Language OF Mass of next Wednesday, I find the:

    Introit - Cantica Nova( Previous Sunday)
    Responsorial Psalm - USCCB Reading (Of The Day)
    Alleluia Verse -
    Offertory -
    Communion - (Cantica Nova)

    So, where do I find the Alleluia AND the Offertory, please?

    (I will be doing this for the next three months, so your help IS appreciated!)
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    Alleluia Verse - In the Lectionary. Or you could use the Alleluia given in the Graduale Romanum, or the one given in the Graduale Simplex, or the Alleluia Psalm in the Graduale Simplex.
    Offertory - In the Graduale Romanum, or in the Graduale Simplex. Or else replace it with something approved by the Bishop's Conference.
  • Thanks!

    So I have to buy a lectionary just to be able to work on this 62 miles from the church?

    I am not unwilling to buy A book, but this is...ridiculous.

    Is there a Missal with all of this in it?

    Introit - Cantica Nova( Previous Sunday)
    Responsorial Psalm - USCCB Reading (Of The Day)
    Alleluia Verse - Lectionary or [http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/1998USL-OrdinaryC.htm and a NAB Bible]
    Offertory - Graduale Romanum [no, this is in Latin...help!]
    Communion - (Cantica Nova)
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,292
    Noel:

    Are you fasting in the desert? Or are you fasting in the dessert? Where are you?

    There is the American Gradual and the AUG on the home page.
  • AHA!


    Yes, I am in the hinterlands.


    But of course, you are absolutely right! I was laboring under the need to make sure that the texts we are singing are the same ones people will find in their missals...but you've hit the nail on the head, because in this worshipping community THEY HAVE NO MISSALS!

    So I can use these...and will. Like them both a lot. Thank you, thank you.

    BUT, why are all of the propers not available in one place on the USCCB site? This isn't like the Masons....there is no need for secrecy.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,292
    Noel... Don't get me started... Between the two of us I think we could create one single solitary book that has ALL the necessary music for the choir for the entire year, typeset with square notes (very similar to the AUG). I am seriously getting to that point! I think Aristotle and JO and a few others would jump in. I get tired of pasting and patching all the music together every week on my Mac, as easy as it is, it truly is a PIA.
  • One Solution To Propers During The Week - OF English
    Make suggestions, please.

    A. Seasonal Propers
    By Flowing Waters

    OR

    B. Propers of the Day
    Weekday Mass Propers - OF
    Year of Cycle: C


    1. Introit
    Previous Sunday
    Web reference: Cantica Nova
    Download Music: The American Gradual or The Anglican Use Gradual


    Responsorial Psalm
    Of the Day
    Web reference: USCCB USCCB Readings
    Music: Use Anglican Chant

    Alleluia Verse [PLEASE READ: This does not make sense to me...why is the text incorrect?]
    Of the Day
    Web reference: Lectionary For Mass
    Music: The Anglican Use Gradual
    Change words to correct Lectionary text.

    Offertory
    Previous Sunday
    Web reference: Cantica Nova
    Music: The American Gradual or The Anglican Use Gradual


    Communion
    Previous Sunday
    Web reference: Cantica Nova
    Music: The American Gradual or The Anglican Use Gradual
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,292
    Ok Noel

    Would you assemble a single PDF of all above material for lent? ;-) I actually think people would buy it!
  • For all the weekdays? That might be possible.

    Any idea what the problem is with the Alleluia Verse text?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    I'm puzzled to see that Fr. Just lists a specific alleluia verse for the Sundays in Ordinary Time. According to the "New American Sunday Missal" (Collins, 1974), p. 372, there's a list of alleluia verses for OT, but they're not assigned to specific weeks.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > there's a list of alleluia verses for OT, but they're not assigned to specific weeks

    I don't know about your vernacular version for the US, but the Roman Lectionary does have one verse for each single day be it Sunday or ferial. Actually Sundays have three verses, one for each of the three years in the Lectionary cycle. (Here in Portugal we can get all that stuff from the Bishops' Conference site, and the translation of Bible texts is normally good.)

    Now such verses seldom coincide with those set forth in the Roman Gradual, but that's another story sufficiently covered in other discussions in this Forum.
  • I wonder if Fr. Just might be more approachable about listing ALL the propers for each day...since USCCB is not interested, I have been told.

    Of course, at this point the only criticism we can get...and I have been through this...is from people who have missals or use Breaking Bread, for example, and hear discrepancies.

    It is unfortunate that we get criticized for "not doing the Mass as written" when it is near impossible to determine what it should be.

    Children, dogs, dolphins, they all want to know what the rules are and learn quickly to follow them, we too, want to please....but we need the rules.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,807
    But we also need signposts that rules are insufficient.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,292
    Na... The rules work fine if you stay on the road.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    I'm drawing the conclusion that the alleluia verses have been changed somewhat, over various editions of the US Lectionary. Many of the alleluia verses on Fr. Just's list, taken from the 1998 Lectionary, aren't even on the list of options offered in 1974. (If you have a copy of Worship II, it's at #661.)
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    frogman: "Where can I find the chosen lectionary:"

    Do you mean "lectionary" or do you mean "text" ?

    We need to think high level first, then drill down.

    Missal == Sacramentary + Lectionary

    With the Extraordinary Form, the priest did everything,
    so everything is in one book, the Missal.
    For the Ordinary Form, there is a division of labor,
    so the items you want are divided up, some in the Sacramentary, some in the Lectionary.
    Given the latter, ask yourself
    "where do I direct my attention when that moment of the Mass occurs?"
    then look at the book found in that place.

    Recommendation to everyone for this weekend after Mass ...

    Take the Sacramentary from the altar,
    and the Lectionary from the ambo,
    and carry both into the sacristy
    and place them side by side on the vesting table.
    Pull down from the dusty cabinet top an old Latin Missal.
    Get your Graduale (or Gregorian Missal).
    And while you are at it, grab a throw-away-misalette.

    My habitual layout looked like this ...
    (Missal)(Graduale)
    (Sacramentary)(Lectionary)(throw-away-missalette)

    Synchronize everything to any particular Sunday.
    Familiarize yourself with the organization and contents of each
    and compare the texts.

    And, about those discrepancies, tell them the truth ...
    The singing texts were decided long ago,
    and Vatican II says that they are still to be used for that purpose.
    The texts you have are only speaking texts, not singing texts.

    You might facilitate their "learning new things" by having handy
    some pre-printed sheets with the online Vatican URLs
    and the relevant quotation fragments.
    Hopefully they will look it up and discover there is even more to read and learn.
  • eft - nicely done.
  • Just followed Eft's advice.

    Took Sacramentary and Lectionary...there is no throwaway missalette...

    And there is no offertory verse in tHE SACRAMENTARY OR LECTIONARY!

    I have a throwaway WLP at home that I think might have the Offertory....
  • Erik P
    Posts: 152
    On a side note, (I probably should start a new thread but this seems relevant enough), I am trying to find the Scripture Readings in Latin for a N.O. Mass, so that I can write them out to be sung. I have been unable to find a copy of the 1981 Ordo Lectionum Missae. I can find the old rite readings but with the new lectionary I can't find them in Latin. I may be forced to do them in English, oh well. Can anyone help with this?
  • Erik P
    Posts: 152
    Specifically, looking for Pentecost Sunday, Year C, Mass of the Day.
  • From the Ordo Lectionum Missae, p. 41-42:

    Dominica Pentecostes

    Ad Missam in die

    Lectio I: Act 2, 1-11 "Cum compleretur dies Pentecostes..."

    Ps. resp.: Ps 103, 1ab et 24ac. 29bc-30. 31 et 34
    R/ (30): Emitte Spiritum tuum, Domine, et renova faciem terrae.
    vel: Alleluia

    Lectio II: 1 Cor 12, 3b-7. 12-13 "Fratres: Nemo potest dicere: «Dominus Iesus»..."

    Sequentia: Veni, Sancte Spiritus

    Alleluia: Veni, Sancte Spiritus, reple tuorum corda fidelium; et tui amoris in eis ignem accende.

    Evang.: Io 20, 19-23: "Cum esset sero die illo, prima sabbatorum..."

    Vel ad libitum pro anno C:

    Lectio II: Rom 8, 8-17: "Fratres: Spiritu ambulate..."

    Evang.: Io 14, 15-16.23b-26 "In illo tempore: Dixit Iesus discipulis suis: Si diligitis me..."

    You can find the texts in the Nova Vulgata.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    "You cannot give what you do not have."

    GIRM # 74 talks about the Offertory chant.
    We know that the Graduale contains that text with music.
    We know that the Sacramentary contains texts intended for speaking.

    Can anyone confirm the absence or presence of the Offertory spoken texts
    in the Latin edition of the Sacramentary?
    If these spoken texts are absent, why were they not invented?
    If these spoken texts are present, why were they not translated into English?

    ---

    For another datapoint,
    about twenty years ago I purchased the two items below.
    The Offertory is missing from them as well, so this is not a recent thing.
    The only mention (in red ink) is in the section "The Order Of Mass"
    "After the liturgy of the word, the offertory song is begun [...] If no offertory song is sung, the priest ..."

    The Vatican II SUNDAY MISSAL
    (1974 Daughters of Saint Paul)
    (1969 1970 1973 International Committee on English in the Liturgy Inc)
    (1970 Confraternity of Christian Doctrine)

    The Vatican II WEEKDAY MISSAL
    (1975 Daughters of Saint Paul)
    (1969 1970 1972 1973 International Committee on English in the Liturgy Inc)
    (1970 Confraternity of Christian Doctrine)
  • Erik P
    Posts: 152
    Thank you
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    The Introit and Communion antiphons are spoken if not sung, but the Offertory is not. That's because the former two are processional chants, and the latter occurs while the priest is saying the preparation prayers. It would be impossible for him to speak the Offertory antiphon at the same time as it would ordinarily be sung. If there is no singing, the presider may say some of the prayers (ordinarily said in a low voice) out loud, some of which have responses from the people. I imagine that is why there is no Offertory antiphon in the Missal. Once again, the Missal antiphons were intended to be spoken and not sung.

    The Alleluia (or gospel acclamation), by the way, may be omitted if not sung.
  • The Offertory does not accompany the Offertory Procession?

    The Alleluia MUST be eliminated if not sung.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    Another datapoint now that I am in the Parish Office.

    In 1964, the Missal (for use on the altar, full-size 9in X 12in, red leatherette cover, gold-leaf edges, etc)
    did have the Offertory text, and said text is in English.
    So, for completeness, yes, in English are the texts for all five propers:
    Introit, Graduale, Alleluia, Offertory, Communion.
    Below, I made them bold for easy identification.
    black text is plain
    red text is bracketed as [red text]

    Roman Missal
    Misalle Romanum
    Ex Decreto Sacrosancti Concilii
    Tridentini Restitutum
    Summorum Pontificum Cura Recognitum
    cum
    Versionibus Lingua Anglica Exaratis
    et a
    Coetu Episcoporum Civitatum
    Foederatarum Americae Septentrionalis
    Rite Approbatis
    Actis ab Apostolica Sede Confirmatis
    Catholic Book Publishing Co
    New York
    1964

    T-64

    ===Pages one and two===

    PROPRIUM DE TEMPORE
    [TEMPUS ADVENTUS]

    DOMINICA PRIMA ADVENTUS
    [I classis] Statio ad S. Mariam Maiorem
    [Ant. ad Introitum Ps. 24, 1-3]
    To you I lift up my soul; in you ...

    [Hic modus repetendi ...]
    [Non dicitur Gloria ...]
    Oremus. [Oratio]
    Excita, quaesumus, ...
    A Reading from the Epistle of blessed Paul the Apostle to the Romans [Rom 13, 11-14]
    Brethren: it is now the hour ...
    [Graduale Ps. 24, 3 et 4]
    No one who waits for you shall be put to shame ...

    [In feris Adventus, quando per ...]
    Alleluia, alleluia. [V. Ps. 84, 8]
    Show us, O Lord, your ...

    [+] A Reading from the holy Gospel according to Luke [Lk 21, 25-33]
    At that time Jesus said to his ...
    [Credo, quod dicitur in qualibet dominica, ...]
    [Ant. ad Offertorium Ps. 24, 1-3]
    To you I lift up my soul; in you, O my God, I trust; ...

    [Secreta]
    Haec sacra nos, Domine, potenti virtute ...
    [Praefatio de sanctissima Trinitate: quae ...]
    [Ant. ad Communionem Ps. 84, 13]
    The Lord will give his benefits ...

    Oremus [Postcommunio]
    Suscipiamus, Domine, misericordiam ...
    [Per totum annum, si dicenda sit infra ...]
    [De feriis Adventus fit commemoratio ...]

    DOMINICA SECUNDA ADVENTUS
    ...etc...
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > The Alleluia MUST be eliminated if not sung.

    I beg your pardon, but I believe that the Alleluia, if not sung, MAY be eliminated IF there is only one reading before the Gospel. (This means that on Sundays the Alleluia, if not sung, MUST be said.) Indeed, § 63 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal says that «When there is only one reading before the Gospel (...) The Alleluia or verse before the Gospel may be omitted if they are not sung.» I am unaware of any conflicting indication in liturgical books (capable of superseding the GIRM) enlarging this ommission to the extent you mention.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > In 1964, the Missal did have the Offertory

    Yes, but that was before the promulgation of the 1970 Missale Romanum (a.k.a. Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite).

    > Can anyone confirm the absence or presence of the Offertory spoken texts in the Latin edition of the Sacramentary?

    Sure, they're not there, and the reason has been mentioned above: the priest does not say the Offertory antiphon if it is not sung. You can check that yourself downloading a PDF file with an OCR of the 2002 Roman Missal from this French site.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    dvalerio, here is my logic ...

    In 1964 the propers translated into English were present in the Missal.
    The priest would be responsible to speak them, regardless of singing.

    Then comes the idea for the proper texts to be spoken by the people if no singing.
    So, if the people are going to speak the propers, why should one of them disappear?
    There are plenty of non-priest texts in the Missal/Sacramentary,
    and this would be just one more still there.
    The people are capable of speaking on their own two propers (Introit, Communion);
    how are they incapable of speaking on their own a third proper (Offertory)?

    Is there some book somewhere (e.g., Bugnini, ...) that presents the decision and the reason(s) why?
    I am just trying to understand both the historical timeline and the reasoning.

    Also, thanks for the Latin Missal PDF pointer.
  • dvalerio is correct...the GIRM concerning the Alleluia. Now who can tell me where it says it MUST be sung or omitted....or am I losing my mind?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    2002 GIRM para. 63:

    c) Alleluia vel versus ante Evangelium, si non cantantur, omitti possunt.

    "The Alleluia or the Verse before the Gospel, if they are not sung, can be omitted."
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > Now who can tell me where it says it MUST be sung or omitted

    As far as I know, nowhere. As mentioned above, if there is only one reading before the Gospel, and the Alleluia is not sung, it may be ommitted.

    Perhaps you're thinking about the rubric in the Graduale Romanum (or the Ordo Cantus Missae) that says that, if there is only one reading before the Gospel, you sing the Gradual or the Alleluia, but not both? (In Lent, the Gradual or the Tract; in Easter Time, one of the two Alleluias.)

    > So, if the people are going to speak the propers, why should one of them disappear?

    Someone thought it made sense to keep Introit and Communion antiphons even when they are not sung, but better to ommit the Offertory if not sung (there are the Offertory prayers said aloud after all). Was it a good decision? That's another question and there are arguments for both sides.

    > Is there some book somewhere (e.g., Bugnini, ...) that presents the decision and the reason(s) why?

    I believe someone in this Forum has mentioned a book on the liturgical reform that addresses the issue, but I've never read it. If you search around with Google you may be able to find the reference.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    (feb 17) frogman: The Offertory does not accompany the Offertory Procession?

    Exactly, yes it does. Whew, someone understands the situation around my question:
    The gifts are brought from the main entrance to the priest,
    OR, the gifts are brought from the credence table to the priest,
    during which the people could say aloud the speaking text just as they initiate the Introit and Communion.
    THEN, the priest says any Offertory prayers (Blessed are you Lord ...).

    So, I continue searching, and find ...

    Thirty-Five Years of the BCL Newsletter 1965-2000 (page 216)

    USCCB BCL Newsletter Vol 6 No 2-3 (Feb-Mar 1970)
    [...]
    Celebration of Mass: Interim Directions

    In an instruction dated October 20, 1969, the Congregation for Divine Worship indicated norms
    governing the celebration of Mass, with the use of the new Order and lectionary, until the completed
    missal (sacramentary) is issued. The text of prayers in the present sacramentary remain in effect.

    1. Entrance song. If there is no singing (i.e., no psalm, hymn, or other sacred song),
    the antiphon in the missal is recited. Until the publication of the complete new missal,
    the antiphon alone from the present missal
    (i.e., without the psalm verse, Gloria Patri, or repetition of the antiphon) is said in such cases.
    2. Conclusion of prayers. [...]
    3. Communion song. If there is no singing (i.e., no psalm, hymn, or other sacred song),
    the antiphon in the missal is recited. Until the publication of the complete new missal,
    the antiphon from the present missal
    is said in such cases. (Note: If there is no singing during the preparation of the gifts,
    the offertory antiphon from the Roman Missal is simply omitted.)

    The official American editions of the Order of Mass have an appendix with notes to the
    General Instruction of the Roman Missal. These notes collect and summarize, or at least
    give references to, the principal decisions of the Nations Conference of Catholic Bishops, etc.,
    in relation to the revised Order of Mass.
    [...]

    Do you see the Offertory instruction buried in the parenthesis after the Communion instruction?
    Strange.
    So, I go and locate the actual document, and discover its material is not quite the same
    (i.e., the Newsletter has in-accurately represented the material).
    There are footnotes which need follow-up,
    but the then-effective 1969 GIRM # 50 does say "If it is not sung, the presentation antiphon is omitted.".
    Communion is not mentioned directly, only through the footnotes.
    Documents On The Liturgy 1963-1979 Conciliar, Papal, and Curial Texts (pages 534-537)

    209. SC DIVINE WORSHIP, Instruction Constitutione Apostolica, on the gradual
    carrying out of the Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum (3 April 1969),
    20 October 1969: AAS 61 749-753; Not 5 (1969) 418-423.
    [...]
    13. As the new Order of Mass is being used before the publication of the new Roman
    Missal, the texts for antiphons and prayers are to be taken from the existing Missal,
    but with the following being observed.
    a. If the entrance antiphon is not sung, it is said only once, without the psalm
    verse and Gloria Patri.[12]
    b. If not sung, the antiphon for the presentation of the gifts is omitted;[13]
    c. The prayer over the gifts and the prayer after communion are concluded with the short form.[14]
    [...]
    -----
    [12] See GIRM no. 26.
    [13] See GIRM no. 50.
    [14] See GIRM no. 32.

    In a previous post (scroll up), I show that in 1964, English texts exist for Introit and Offertory and Communion.
    Now in this post, I show that in 1969, the Offertory text is to be ignored, although available.
    Getting closer to an answer. Stay tuned.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Eft, is not the Missal that you mention a translation of an official liturgical book, intended to guide understanding of a Mass that was sung or said in Latin, and not an official liturgical book for use in Masses sung or said in English? The inclusion of an English translation of the Offertory antiphon that the choir would be singing does not in itself suggest that that Offertory antiphon should be spoken in the absence of a choir -- in English or otherwise. Or have I misunderstood?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    Incantu, eft's 1964 missal is probably a copy of the transitional English missal used prior to 1969.

    The current missal (IGMR/GIRM #74) says that the Offertory chant is to be performed, and can be sung even if there is no procession.
    Processionem, qua dona afferuntur, cantus ad offertorium comitatur (cf.
    n. 37, b), qui protrahitur saltem usquedum dona super altare deposita sunt.
    Normæ de modo cantandi eædem sunt ac pro cantu ad introitum (cf. n. 48).
    Cantus potest semper ritus ad offertorium sociare, etiam sine processione cum
    donis.

    This is, of course, not very practical since the text of the offertory chant is not included in the Missale or its translations, but is left to the Graduale.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    incantu, this is a large book for use on the altar by the priest.
    I have edited the post about the 1964 Missal to include size and quality details.
    As my blockquote shows there, most of the text is in Latin, some text is in English (two readings, five propers).

    Let us review a timeline ...
    1962-oct-11 (thru Dec 8) Vatican II Session 1
    1963-sep-29 (thru Dec 4) Vatican II Session 2
    1963-dec-04 Sacrosanctum Concilium ("SC")
    1964-jan-25 Sacram Liturgiam (establishes Consilium)
    1964-sep-14 (thru Nov 21) Vatican II Session 3
    1964-sep-26 Inter Oecumenici (SC Instruction 1)
    In this document (sorry no Vatican link, see http://www.adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html ) we find

    57. For Masses, whether sung or recited, celebrated with a congregation, the competent, territorial ecclesiastical authority on approval, that is, confirmation, of its decisions by the Holy See, may introduce the vernacular into:

    a. the proclaiming of the lessons, epistle, and gospel; the universal prayer or prayer of the faithful;

    b. as befits the circumstances of the place, the chants of the Ordinary of the Mass, namely, the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus-Benedictus, Agnus Dei, as well as the introit, offertory, and communion antiphons and the chants between the readings;

    c. acclamations, greeting, and dialogue formularies, the Ecce Agnus Dei, Domine, non sum dignus, Corpus Christi at the communion of the faithful, and the Lord's Prayer with its introduction and embolism.

    Missals to be used in the liturgy, however, shall contain besides the vernacular version the Latin text as well.


    Yes, we all know that the Offertory text disappeared from the altar Missal/Sacramentary.
    Nobody wants to thoroughly address the two questions, WHEN and WHY.

    It is helpful to read posts about what Offertory text is found in the Altar Missal
    at specific copyright dates (with supporting documentation, please!).
    We still need info about 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968.
    I will continue looking.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,860
    This may add a data point: I have a hand missal, the "St. Paul Daily Missal", with some version of the transitional liturgy in English. Its imprimatur is, alas, undated, so I cannot attribute to it a specific date of publication. (Hand missals with this title were issued more than once by the Daughters of St. Paul: 1953, 1960, etc.) However, based on the copyright notices in the acknowledgements, it was published in 1966 or later.

    It includes offertory antiphon texts for each set of Mass propers. A 'rubric' instructs:
    The Offertory Antiphon occurs after the "Prayer of the Faithful," or if the Prayer is not celebrated, after the celebrant says or sings "Let us pray."
    Thanked by 1eft94530