I would like to play guitar during Mass. Help?
  • Telemachus
    Posts: 2
    I've played guitar for years, but am mostly untrained except in jazz / blues guitar, almost solely chords. I have musical ability, and am finally becoming well-tutored in voice and guitar.

    I am hostile to the use of guitar during Mass, not because of the nature of the instrument, but because of the way it is played, and the melodies which are most commonly played on it. My very soul cringes at the "life teen" Masses which are put on at our parishes.

    Thus, I would like to learn how to play the guitar properly, not for my own enjoyment, but for the sake of Our Lord and the glory of the Mass. Please tell me, is this possible? It seems to me that classical guitar forms are suitable to the Mass, for instance. Is there anything else? Is there a particular course I should take in my studies? Shall I learn musical theory in order to better understand how I must go about learning? This is a calling, and I desire to take it seriously.

    I should add that I've already been roped into playing guitar for our music ministry. I hate the music that I must play. And yet, the director of our music ministry sent us all this: http://vimeo.com/10686215. This video is how I found this site. I believe he doesn't like what he currently uses either, and is seeking to change course. He is helping me learn the guitar, and will be giving voice lessons to me later this year.

    Anyways, I babble. Any advice besides "don't play guitar at Mass" would be preferred, although if I shouldn't then I shouldn't, and there is nothing I can do about it. It is such a lovely instrument, though, and it's just waiting for someone to play it right. Angelic inspiration may be the only choice.

    God Bless,
    Tele
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Dear Telemachus,

    I've spent my entire life studying the piano and the great pianists (especially Hofmann, Cortot, Horowitz, Tiegerman, Richter, & Friedman). I won the second highest piano award in the State of Kansas, which is how I could afford to go to college.

    This being said, I never, ever, ever play piano at Mass.

    It doesn't mean I don't love the piano.

    I am just absolutely convinced by what I know about the Catholic Church that God wants chant at Mass (and polyphony based on chant). The reason for this has to do with the Sacrifice of Calvary and what happens at Mass. It demands a certain dignity piano music can never have. Period. End of story. This is my conviction.

    I'm not sure if this helps you or not. I know that I have not made a cerebral argument.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Telemachus, without advising you to do one thing or another, living out one's calling in the world is a glorification of God, and if this involves becoming a classical guitarist, so be it. Mass is not the only time or place where we come into contact with God.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    As an organist, I do have a preference for the pipe organ at mass. Any number of church documents verify the instrument's place in the liturgy. So, ideally, I think that is the instrument to use for mass. However, some churches don't have pipe organs, or even if they do, no one to play them. I don't know the circumstances in which you work, or what is available to you. I am going to say that a well-played guitar can be acceptable, especially if nothing else is available. It seems to me you are aware of the different styles of playing, and styles of music available for the guitar. Without writing three pages about what is "good" music, I suspect you know it when you hear it. I am going to offer the opinion that classical guitar and better music selections played conscientiously, would be a vast improvement over what's being heard in many Catholic churches.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I too can imagine guitar at Mass, though I've never actually heard one played in a way that was suitable. What I don't understand is the presumption that an instrument has to be played at all. You say you are a singer, so why not sing and embrace the truth that the human voice is the primary instrument? Our schola thrived for many years without any instruments, and even now we never mixed organ and voice. A sung Mass requires no accompaniment whatsoever.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Singers! They make our lives miserable! A plague on all their houses. LOL. Although I must admit, from recordings posted here, that Jeffrey sings rather well. I don't find the human voice superior to other instruments. I know it's just my opinion, but unaccompanied voices can sound incomplete to me. There is no foundation under them. Voices alone can become tiresome to hear, which may be one of the reasons the organ was introduced to the mass 1,000 or so years ago. Of course, no singers will every think they can become tedious to hear. Such egos! I had to join an a cappella choir in college, and hated every moment of it. Now you know my bias against unaccompanied singing. A little goes a long way. LOL.

    On a more serious note, it sounds to me, Telemachus, like you are trying to do the right things. As I said earlier, be conscientious and use your best judgement. With your degree of thoughtfulness, I believe you can start with the situation you have been given, and make improvements to the liturgy over time. That is what most all CMAA folks attempt to do, don't you think?
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    After I recovered from CharlesW's assault on a cappella music (just kidding), I gave this some thought.

    I think well-played finger-picked (aka classical style) guitar does have something to offer. And I've heard it exactly once with a beautiful post-Communion meditation on Franck's Panis Angelicus. That style also works well with music from Taize. It's the strummed or rhythm-driven guitar playing that makes lots of folks cringe or causes hootenanny flash-backs. It's all about understatement and elegance.

    There are lots of churches without organs or with wretched keyboards. I'll take some deftly placed guitar arpeggios any day. Low open fifths can supply a very nice support to chant hymns. You'll have to look hard to find good examples, but pursue your interest.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    How wonderful that your director sent musicians link to watch this video,
    http://vimeo.com/10686215, that Jeff O. made. (Sacred music vs. Secular). It truly tells you alot.

    Other excellent video clips,

    http://www.gloria.tv/?media=60058
    (true sacred music helps us to become better than we are. )


    http://vimeo.com/8941838
    (Sacred, Beautiful and Universal ).

    I hope these links also help you with makinng decisions.

    I found that when we do music in church, we should try to understand the nature of the sacred music, Liturgy and the Church's instruction, and place them above our tastes in music.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    There is a tradition of appropriate guitar playing in 17th-century Spain and France. If one plays baroque settings, the guitar is a traditional continuo instrument. There is no reason why it shouldn't be allowed as an accompaniment instrument when played in the finest traditions. Count me as one who would not like to see chant and Renaissance polyphony to the exclusion of everything else. I played baroque guitar in the continuo group for Charpentier's 'Te Deum' for example.

    A suggestion might be to explore the theorbo. You might have more opportunity to play wonderful sacred music on this instrument. I can also say that it is just as rewarding, and perhaps even more of a challenge than the guitar.

    Buena suerte
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Mjballou, I can take a fair amount of unaccompanied singing, but do reach a point where I don't want to hear any more. You will never convince singers, however, that anyone could tire of hearing them. What can you do, other than put Viking helmets on them, and let them roar? ;-)

    All kidding aside, I am in agreement with what you and Michael O'Connor have written. We have hundreds of years of sacred music to draw on, not just what was produced in one place or time. While the human voice has the unique ability to convey text, other instruments exceed it in range, tone and dynamics. The voice is not the only instrument. Our original poster seems to have his heart and head in the right place. I support his efforts, and wish all guitarists had a similar approach to church music.
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,185
    Personally, I'd like to see a Graduale Romanum: Comitante Chitarra*…

    *Roman Gradual: Guitar Accompaniment
  • Erik P
    Posts: 152
    .
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    As Michael O'Connor knows, the Spanish arpa de dos ordones was an important continuo instrument for liturgical use.

    (BTW Mike - I thought you were just a wind man. I played Paul O'Dette and Andrew Lawrence-King's Jacaras recording yesterday on my radio show. Small world.)

    Erik's suggestion is good. Start by looking at the bass and then think countermelodies. And take all the time you need. Your biggest obstacle will be other people's expectations of the guitar, both from those who love it and those who don't.

    Must shop online now for helmets for my singers. :)
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    UNC has a theorbo just lying around somewhere. It's a pity I can't pass it on.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    My question for adapting certain practices in defferent times and places into our time is that can it help today's modern litrugy that has gone so far that the Church is calling for the 'reform of the reform'?
    Some churches in US might have already established the norms of sacred music that the Church calls for, but I think there are more local churches who don't have that yet. Will experimenting different practices and introducing different instruments to where there hasn't been any sacred music started yet, like many parishes in this area, help church musicians to focus on what the Church and our Holy Father are trying to do, or pull them into different directions and confuse them more?

    It seems like you have a good music director, who probably knows the situation of the parish, and lead the musicians who can work togehter and take approprate steps to support the Liturgy with sacred music and follow the Church's calling.
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    there is an excellent choir piece called show me thy ways. unfortunately i cant remember off hand who the composer was. it is a great representative ov a modern composer composing in a chant and polyphony inspired style. its scored for 4 part choir oboe and guitar. the guitar in this context adds an incredable dynamic to the piece inspired as it was with lute continuos.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    As a guitar player, you may not find it too difficult to learn another stringed instrument. I find as a sax player that I can easily pick up and learn other single reed instruments (although the non-octave key octave key of the clarinet confuses me) and recorder-like instruments (I play around with the tin whistle and ocarina from time to time). A lot of what goes into good wind instrument playing--breath support, embouchure, even fingerings--are very similar. You might be able to move on to a bowed instrument such as the violin, viola, or cello, with relative ease... the bowing part will be a steep learning curve, but the fingerings and such should come faster than usual, once you get used to the fretless necks. You could also try learning a more lyre- or harp-like instrument (or, like, the lyre or harp) as well. Learning other instruments in the same general category as one you already play is challenging of course, but fun, and easier than starting from scratch. It would also give you much more versatility in the long run. All the people I know who do music professionally play multiple instruments well.

    That being said, I do think classical guitar, done well, would be a far sight better than what is often played at Mass. Pick real sacred music to learn and not the faux stuff and you should be fine. Avoid strumming as much as possible. :) But in your own personal time perhaps you can also work on learning to play another stringed instrument that fits in a wider variety of sacred settings.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    In Catholic liturgy, instruments are optional, human voices are not. Somethings are that simple. And one very good presumptive measure of evaluating liturgical music is how well it sounds and serves the liturgy without accompaniment.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    You may have to deal with the Folk-ditties for a while but don't forget that Christmas is coming! Pick up a copy of "The Shorter New Oxford Book of Carols" (You can order if from Barnes and Noble) Both you and the choir director will find this to be an invaluable resource - and it has the Original version of "Stille Nacht" with guitar accompaniment. Since everyone, I hope!, knows Silent Night, this could be a way of introducing Classical Guitar without much fuss. Beautiful and Historically accurate.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    At a monastery of my acquaintance, a classical guitarist plays a prelude before morning Mass. I don't know if that would "work" well at an average parish, where the time before Mass is very noisy.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 489
    Recently I heard a solo renaissance hymn accompanied by a lute, cithera or ud at solemn vespers. Another time I heard Palestrina's "O bone Jesu" on guitars. beautiful! Historical insturments like gambas and cithera are often more easily accepted yet we can achieve the same results with guitars and maybe even a digital devices though we often resist these. And many of our acoustically dead churches are brought to life more by plucked sustained strings than by over scaled loud pipe organs. All kinds of things are possible and allowed now. Go for it.
    Instruments other than organs are allowed. and you will validate their use.
    what would you like better: Handel's water music with Hammond registration, The "Wedding Song?" or an ensemble of guitars playing contemporary polyphony.


    Here's less serious example of a serious piece. "Te Lucis" on accordion. more of a concert improvisation than a liturgical piece but the performer certainly has the skill and the ear for liturgical improv. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzWJdPNfwNo
  • Pes
    Posts: 623
    Didn't David play the harp? I wonder what psalm tones would sound like accompanied by a baroque guitar.

    what would you like better: Handel's water music with Hammond registration, The "Wedding Song?" or an ensemble of guitars playing contemporary polyphony?

    I know this will sound reductive to a group used to singing High Renaissance Polyphony (a group in which I count myself), but there must be more to be gained from a holy and symbolic minimalism than any well-intentioned attempt to gin up a sense of busy-ness and volume.

    Intone chants in Advent with a shepherd's flute, and feast day introits with trumpet.
    Sing things in perfect but simple fauxbourdon.
    Accompany traditional psalmody with a small harp or classical guitar.
    Use deep pedal tones (organ or bowed double-bass) and toss out a few ribbons of chant melody after the communion chant or motet with a wind instrument (oboe for pastoral days, violin for memorials, etc.).
    Chant the Mass.

    I think there's a common perception out there that "music" has to be a pretty sizable production. Ideally, yes, it would be, but not every parish can offer that. They can, however, offer small things, but with intelligent symbolism, perfect discipline, and love.
  • Telemachus
    Posts: 2
    Folks,

    Thanks everyone for the feedback.

    What I take away from all of this is the following:
    (1) Voices / organs are fundamental. All else is negotiable.
    (2) The calling to glorify God through a particular musical instrument is not necessarily the same as a calling to play this instrument as a musical accompaniment to the Mass.
    (3) Classical guitar might be appropriate. Let the musical director decide in the end.
    (4) Other stringed instruments might be appropriate, so learn one of these eventually.

    Thanks everyone for the feedback.

    God Bless,
    Tele
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Beautiful post, Pes.
    Are you at Dusquene?
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