Question about Propers
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 964
    On the 5th Sunday of Lent, I find the Judica me Introit. In the Liber Usualis, it states: "The Gloria Patri is not said at the Introit from this day until Easter Sunday, except on Feasts. The Judica me is repeated up to the psalm." However, I don't know if this applies with the Novus Ordo Mass. Help, anyone? My Gregorian Missal and Graduale Romanum are silent on the subject.
  • Cantor
    Posts: 84
    I’ve never seen a reference to this in the Graduale Romanum.....
  • Hugh
    Posts: 198
    I am unfamiliar with the Novus Ordo as far as sung propers are concerned. But as far as I know there is no Gloria Patri at the end of any Introit in the Pauline Missale Romanum - whether it's said or sung. That's why the Gloria Patri doesn't ever appear in the Graduale Romanum or the Gregorian Missal at the Introit. The rubric you refer to applies - I think - only to the 1962 Missal (& hence the Liber), which highlights the greater solemn "sorrow" of the latter weeks of Lent in this forsaking of the Gloria, just as (in both forms) the Alleluia is from an earlier point in time excluded.

    In other words, in the Pauline Missal, there is no noticeable change at this point on the 5th Sunday of Lent.

    Others here may be able to advise further.

    Cheers,

    Hugh
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    The Gloria Patri is still a part of the Introit, and the tones are set out on p. 822-4 of the Graduale Romanum. I'm not a Latin expert, but the Preface to the book seems to say that it may be omitted, especially if the Procession is brief. But it also states that extra Psalm verses may be added if the Procession is longer, and that the GP should be the final verse in that case.

    The "Judica me" Introit on Lent V was, in the older Missal, the "Passion Sunday" which is why the GP was omitted on that Sunday and through Holy Week. On our new "Passion Sunday", "Palm Sunday", there is no Introit if the Blessing of the Palms precedes Mass. And seems to happen at all the N.O. Masses. In the old Missal, it was only allowed at one Mass, so the Introit WAS required at all the other Masses.

    It certainly seems that, if you are using the Introit regularly, with the GP throughout the year, you are free to omit it during Holy Week, and from even earlier in Lent.

    The real trick in the Old Missal is that, when the "Judica me" is in the Introit, it is skipped in the Prayers at the foot of the Altar.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    Here is the translation of the Ordo Cantus Missae (1972), the praenotanda of the Graduale Romanum 1974:

    II. RITES TO BE FOLLOWED IN SINGING THE MASS

    1. When the congregation has gathered and while the priests and ministers are going to the altar, the entrance antiphon begins. Its intonation may be shorter or longer as the circumstances warrant; better still, the whole assembly may begin the chant together. Thus the asterisk in the Graduale marking off the part to be intoned is to be regarded merely as a guide.

    When the choir has sung the antiphon, the cantor or cantors sing the verse, then the choir repeats the antiphon.

    The alternation between antiphon and versicles may go on as long as is necessary to accompany the entrance procession. The final repetition of the antiphon, however, may be preceded by the Gloria Patri and Sicut erat, sung as the one, final versicle. When the Gloria Patri and Sicut erat have a special musical termination, this must be used with each of the other verses.

    If the Gloria Patri and the repetition of the antiphon would cause the chant to last too long, the Gloria Patri is omitted. When the procession is short, only one psalm verse is used or even the antiphon alone, without verse.

    Whenever a liturgical procession precedes the Mass, the entrance antiphon is sung as the procession enters the church--or is even omitted, as the liturgical books indicate in each case.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Just a point of order. In the EF calendar there are two Sundays before Easter: Passion Sunday then Palm Sunday (aka 2nd Sunday of Passiontide)

    moconnor
  • paulrau
    Posts: 7
    I have a question about the double Alleluia during Easter season. Is the 1st Alleluia supposed to be repeated before moving on to the second Alleluia and verse? Thanks to anyone who knows.

    Paul
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Yes, it is. All alleluias are repeated since they are responsorial chants. The first one just takes the place of the Gradual (sort of).
  • dvdjjwb
    Posts: 2
    The above applies to the OF. The EF is different.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    From the Liber usualis:

    This is a little confusing as it seems that the choir repeats the alleluia before going on to the jubilus the FIRST time.

    If Alleluia, Alleluia is to be said with the Verse, the first Alleluia is sung by
    one or two voices as far as the asterisk * : and then the choir repeats the Alleluia.
    continuing with the neum or jubilus which prolongs the syllable a. The cantors
    next sing the Verse, which is finished by the full choir, as before, beginning at
    the asterisk. When the Verse is finished, the cantor or cantors repeat the Alleluia,
    and the full choir sings only the closing neum.
  • dvdjjwb
    Posts: 2
    A hint can be deduced from a Tridentine hand-Missal,
    which has only the text of the two Alleluias.
    The pattern is: Alleluia, Alleluia[text of first Alleluia Verse]
    Alleluia[text of second Alleluia verse]Alleluia.

    What Prof. Mahrt has taught me this means:
    The Alleluia of the first Aleluia is sung twice,
    the first time intoned to the asterisk,
    then repeated from the beginning
    through the asterisk to the Verse.
    The Verse is then sung. Then
    the Alleluia of the _second_ Alleluia
    is sung through once without repeat.
    The Verse of the second Alleluia
    is then sung. Then the Alleluia
    of the second Alleluia is sung
    once through without repeat.
    Thanked by 1puretonesoprano
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Thank you! Dr Marht's (via dvdjjwb) explanation jibes perfectly with the Schola Bellarmina of Brussels recording. These CDs, btw, are really great. More organ accompaniment than I prefer, but it's not obnoxious.

    Mike
  • Ruth Lapeyre
    Posts: 341
    I love this forum. I was going to ask the very same question but it was already answered 3 years ago!!
  • David Sullivan
    Posts: 355
    A minor point to the original question. In the use of the 1962 Missal, the Gloria Patri is also omitted from the Asperges on Passion Sunday. The Asperges isn't used on Palm Sunday, presumably because of the blessing and procession of palms.
  • Ruth Lapeyre
    Posts: 341
    I was very happy to read how to sing the Alleluias in Easter Season, I was sort of confused but dvdjjwb's response was very helpful.
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