A fine hymn! Aurelia is always a rather tired and sappy tune. Ewing is nice for this, but not the best fit. King's Lynn is the one that really works here!

Adam, little spelling mistake on the page - "Magesterium"

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

Thanks for the proofreading. If you see others, let me know.

Well, let's see...

The Book of Job mentions the womb of God twice. It's clear that this is the womb belonging to the First Person of the Trinity (as opposed to the womb of Mary which God dwelt in).

The book of Proverbs (in the reading for Trinity Sunday) has specifically female Wisdom, who is clearly the Second Person of the Trinity. (Baruch, in the reading used for the Easter Vigil, also has a female Wisdom in a prophecy of the coming Messiah).

And since I didn't use any feminine language in the third verse, I need no scriptural backing to describe the Holy Spirit in feminine terms.


Actually, I find the refusal to use feminine imagery for God to be insulting both to God and to humanity. If "male and female" is the Divine Image we are created in, then we ignore half of God when we deliberately avoid talking or thinking about how the Divine Image is "and female."

The three persons of the Trinity are all masculine, and have been understood as such in Sacred Tradition for as long as there's been Sacred Tradition. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. In the holy Scriptures all three persons are referred to with masculine names and pronouns: save for the spirit sometimes being called "it" -- but never "she." I don't see how female Wisdom is "clearly" the second person of the Trinity... you'll have to explain that one. The second person of the Trinity is Jesus Christ our Lord, who took male flesh when he came into the world.

Feminine imagery can sometimes be used to describe God, perhaps, for rhetorical effect, but that does not change the fact that the persons of the Trinity are masculine and have always been understood as such.

Now don't get me wrong: God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are neither male nor female, as they do not have bodies. God the Father can be understood in some metaphors as Mother, and that's where the womb imagery comes in. But all three persons of the Trinity are clearly masculine. There are two ways of looking at that: one being that masculinity is activity, moving, begetting; and femininity is receiving, responding. In that case God is the prime mover and the Church and the individual Christian soul is the feminine receiver; God plants the seed of faith in the fertile soil of the human soul. Etc. That is the traditional medieval Catholic perspective. Or you can look at masculinity as distinction, separation, and self-sacrifice, and femininity as communion, unity, and nurturing. In that case the three persons of the Trinity are clearly transcendent and separate from creation, and pour themselves out for each other and for us. The principle of the Trinity itself is feminine union--sancta trinitas--but the persons are masculine.

Either way, the persons of the Trinity are masculine. There is a reason the church has affirmed that baptisms using inclusive language are invalid.

This is a theological debate I have no interest in at this point in my life.

(And by the way- the fact that I want 1/3 of the music at a Mass to be Gregorian Chant, and 1/3 to be Sacred Choral Music, Hymns, and Polyphony, makes me much, much more liturgically conservative than the average church music director....)

I posted the the hymn because the originator of this thread posted a hymn for Trinity Sunday that picked up the language from Proverbs, about Wisdom, and applied it (appropriately) to Christ.

If this is not a hymn text that is appropriate to your community (or appropriate at all), then don't sing it. (You may notice that I specifically pointed out that the song should not be sung in a Catholic Mass). If you're interested in how Wisdom=Christ, there are people more equipped than I to explain it. If you're not interested, then skip it.

And from the fact that you on your blog state your preference for a Mass that is 1/3 Chant, 1/3 Hymnody and 1/3 Haugen/Haas...I guess that I should not be surprised.

It's amusing and disturbing that my intellectually superior and learned colleague would push "add your comment" to the above ad hominem after a reasonable point of debate offered just prior. How does that demonstrate "wisdom?" Or advance the dialogue, as did Jam?
I hope you're surfacing at Colloquium, FNJ. I really need to associate with you, for my own sake.
P.S. I'm sure I will also benefit from your professional psychiological diagnosis so that I can become a better DM.
Honestly...

Great to know you'll be there, Noel. I, as I stated, am also most hopeful to know that you are "not as ascerbic" as you write.
I am also quite hopeful that you will, from getting to know me, that you don't really mean to assess and adjudicate myself or any others as incapable of loving or understanding the chant and its place according to your sensibilities, and feel it appropriate to demean such folk as myself in this very public forum. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Or, do I remain flawed, willfully ignorant and/or stupid, and non dignus sum, in your estimation? But still I pray that you find a gainful, worthy, and long-lived position worthy of your talents and expertise.
If I'm truly not worthy of being part of CMAA, just say so, don't merely state your incomprehension of that reality. And I would expect the same fraternal correction from any other member, from Prof. Mahrt down to the latest enrollee.
Pax et bonum, FNJ.

All right, I'm cleaning up this thread. There is no shortage of invective hurling in the Catholic world. This forum doesn't need to contribute to it. I'll say this again when the Colloquium opens, but no movement can get anywhere assuming bad will on the part of people who are not 100% with the program. Nor will there be any suggestions of heresy etc. etc. Lord knows that we have all had our fill of that in the blogosphere. Plus, no one has ever been convinced by such rhetorical practices. Please, everyone do his or her part to contribute to making the this forum a productive and forward-thinking venue for all musicians interested in sacred music.

Thanks Jeffrey!

(Also, by the way- I didn't even mention Haugen in my "Preferences" post. And David really does have some excellent stuff [and some awful stuff, yes, but some excellent stuff too]).

Thanks Jam!

Read Proverbs 8, and try to think of how you would interpret Wisdom's monologue if you didn't know that She is female.
Then try to imagine why that text is used as the OT for Trinity Sunday in the current lectionary.
Also, read the pericope from Baruch for the Easter Vigil
Try again to imagine why this reading is placed at the Easter Vigil.

There is more, of course- the Book of Wisdom has some material.
Hebrews quotes the book of Wisdom (He is the refulgence of the Father's glory) when describing Jesus.
And John makes very clear connections between Logos and Sophia in the opening chapter of his Gospel.
In 1 Cor, Jesus is called "the Wisdom of God"

For further research, I admit its a bit hard to separate the goofy new-age from the legitimate biblical exploration. This review gives a decent explanation of some current thoughts on the matter.

The Orthodox tradition has done a much better job of retaining knowledge of Wisdom, retaining her personal name "Sophia," and identifying her with Jesus.
see:
http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?FSID=108957

I'm fairly used to getting negative reactions to my feminist theology- especially since I'm more comfortable in orthodox and conservative company than with the sort of fringey liberals who usually go in for that sort of thing (I like to describe myself as "otherwise orthodox"... my [few] unorthodox beliefs grow out of my grounding in traditional theology and liturgical practice, rather than in a rejection of it- which is why I'm as concerned about Liturgical Orthodoxy and Sacred Music as I am).


Anyway-
I felt a very warm welcome over in my thread about older singers, so it sort of balanced out.

Thank you for your apology, it was very gracious.

And I apologize for my post here.
Not for my belief, but for the carelessness of its expression with a community that doesn't know me well yet.