Older Singers
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I asked Jeffrey this by email (I didn't know about this forum yet)...

    I'm taking over a choir at a small, elderly parish. The choir is...
    well, they're old. And they sound like old people.
    The vibrato is slow and wide, the sound is a bit lethargic, and they drag (the tempo.... although probably other things as well).

    The current repertoire is Protestant Style four-part hymnody, with a smattering of '70s and '80s "Guitar Mass" music (which they don't even have the good sense to play on a guitar).


    My primary (immediate) question is:
    How do I clean up the vocal quality?
    -Tips, tricks, and resources (online or books to read) would be great.

    Secondary (but more important long term) question:
    How does one go about the pastoral work of turning the musical culture around in a parish?


    //The following suggestion will be unhelpful:
    -Get younger people in the choir. (None in the parish to get... yet!)
    -Pay professional singers. (No money. No, really- none.)
    -Try chant. (I intend to... and that's what Jeffrey already said).
    -Suggestion on musical style. (I know. We'll be moving towards Chant, Polyphony, and Sacred Choral eventually. But how?)//
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    To get them out of the rut:

    1. Chant lines on one note, get them used to singing the word rhythms. They may be used to singing fast then slowing dramatically on the popular Resp. Psalms that are out there.
    This is where singing the Communion and Offertory verses on one note, then add a note and then go to psalm tones and follow them by a hymn gets you closer to where you want to be....having one person chant just one verses lets you sing the Communion and Offertory tqice, which builds confidence in the group.
    2. Sing chant hymns in english versions, like Humbly We Adore Thee, concentrating on singing two lines without a breath and lightly, this gets them out of the rut of singing a line and stopping, singing a line and stopping.
    3. Also insist in singing two lines without a breath on the four-part hymnody as well.

    PS: Have a weekly meeting with the pastor as you do this. Seriously.

    By Flowing Waters is an excellent way to make this move. But be very careful not to let them sing them like they sing now, but instead learn to chant them.

    Raise the pitch of the hymnody whenever possible. Just raising a halfstep or a whole step puts them in a much more singable range and with a lighter tone.

    Create a BICS choir....of people who think or have been told that they cannot sing. And then recruit from it.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Outside of the musical technique, I'd work to shift the attitude of everyone from "we're too old to learn anything new" to "this is the coolest experience we've had for a long time!" Whenever you're tempted to use "too old" as some kind of excuse, try to blow it away. It's just not relevant.

    And that will show up in the way people sing. When they have energy in their minds, they'll have energy in their voices.

    And no matter what the age, try things that are suggested by the choir themselves. They want to try a particular song? Go for it. It's your responsibility to ensure that it's good enough quality to actually sing at Mass, and you can tell them that. But that kind of involvement will help people to know that they are valued and important. That generates the energy you need.

    Carl
  • Adam,
    A little trick for the "wobble." I watched the late Leonard Van Camp have the sopranos & altos form a circle, work
    some exercises on breath control, then sing a line together and at the cadence, point to the pitch dead center in the circle.
    It didn't succeed until about the third try; but thereafter, they all caught on to breath support & listening to each other.
    It was exciting to see them exult in the accomplishment. No trick works all the time. But you can usually find something
    to help.
  • Adam, I've done significant research on the aging voice (and I think all church choir directors should study this thoroughly); from a physiological standpoint there's almost nothing you or they can do about the existing quality of their voice. Vital capacity decreases. Muscles atrophy - all of them! The larynx, which is cartilage, is in the advanced stage of ossification. Ranges change dramatically - some go up, some go down.

    Here's what you can do:

    - During warm-ups, encourage stretches and pysical movement. It accomplishes so much. Ask singers to breathe "into your lower back" - which is of course, impossible, but it will encourage deep breathing and get all of those respiratory muscles (both abdominal and intercostal) working again.

    - Do articulation exercises - the facial muscles also atrophy, causing sluggish diction, which will wreak havoc on your tempo and phrasing desires.

    - Airflow, airflow, airflow.

    - Make peace with the fact that their vibratissimo (my word) isn't going to go away. Ever. It's not intentional and half of them wish they didn't have it. It's an artifact of weakened muscles that control the movement of the arytenoids, which operate the vocal folds.

    - If someone's in a section they're no longer fit for, and they're just there because they've always been, move them. If they protest, vocalize them and you'll have the facts on your side.

    - Don't be afraid to change the key of a piece if physical barriers are causing intonation problems.

    - If they complain, you're doing something right. :)

    If I think of anything else I'll add it later, but it's late. Changing the musical culture of a church sounds like a good topic for a doctoral diss. :)

    Cheers,
    Dan
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I agree with Dan -- learn to accept it. Hey, it didn't stop Dolora Zajick.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I directed a choir very much like this; You are probably going to have to put away the polyphony, or, if you want to use some, concentrate on some of the two and three part pieces that are easier and possibly accompany them.

    I did a lot of unision with my group as well as things with simple two part harmony. No, we weren't practicing the "ideal", and I was well aware of it - but we weren't assulting the ears of the congregation and were performing music that was beautiful and that everyone appreciated. We were also able to do the rare piece that they had been singing for years and years and knew VERY well and could still sing in parts, such as Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    There is this feeling that singing in unison is beneath the dignity of a choir, though when they sing in unison they are unable to sustain the line, grab breath, sing out of tune...on and on. For them to come to an understanding that being able to sing with perfection in unison is the training they need to sing music in parts is a great step forward.

    Be prepared for "It's not in parts. Where's the alto part? Can't you find this in parts?"

    Recently a group that is SSA sent two singers to the Ambo to chant the psalm. They sang S2 and A throughout, never touched the melody once, though they were instructed to only sing the melody! And yes, they were capable of singing the melody.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    No one in my choir is in their 80's yet, but there are lots who are sure not 'Spring chickens' NO ONE sings with a wobble or vibrato and my best bass is well over 65. IN fact, two of them are.
    I have an aunt who is closing in on 90 and still sings beautifully. Has a lot to do with genes and early training.
    I still get compliments when I cantor and I am over 60 also. It is easy to generalize, but every situation is different.

    Donna
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,935
    I have an older choir. They still sound pretty good and show up every week. Too many choir directors want to conduct the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and are not capable of appreciating what they have if it is less than that. It's good to be grateful for what you have. Things could always be worse.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    I'm with CharlesW - first of all, love your singers.

    Stretching, vocalizing, visualizing, passing a note around in a circle - do all of these things, but don't do any of them too much. Teach them to listen to you and to each other. Work with the men and then with the women separately. English chant is a good place to start because you at least won't have language problems. Then find pieces that work in two parts - there are some that put the sopranos and tenors an octave apart, likewise the altos and basses.

    Be prepared for the long haul on this. Be delighted when things improve and philosophical when they don't.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Mary Jane,

    about the English chant, my experience is that my choir (mostly over 65) typically do better with Latin chant because the vowels are "foreign," so they have to be careful. If they sing in English, it's a slog through the syrup of our local dialect, with all its numerous diphthongs and triphthongs and combinations of sounds that one can't even spell. So I tend to prefer the Latin!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Yurodivi,

    Yes, this is the "problem" with BFW...people try to "sing" it and interpret the words based upon their wailing of Respond and Acclaim.

    But if they are taught to do it cleanly it can be very effective.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Not suggesting it's a problem -- just an observation. It is *easier* to sing Latin, in my experience, than English, because the vowels are predominantly "pure."
  • This is a good observation - narrowing the vowel choices makes it easier to gain unity in vowel shape, and when your choir achieves that, magic happens!
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 964
    I had one singer (an elderly lady) who had an atrocious warble... it really messed up the sound of the schola because the pitch she sang warbled around the pitch we were trying to achieve and didn't really hit it.

    Two things... I think her hearing wasn't good and she was straining to get out more volume (not good). Telling her to sing more softly helped somewhat.

    Secondly, I found that she had the most problem on held notes (dotted or pressus). She was told never to sing the double count, but to only sing for the 1st half, letting the sound end there. with the rest of the schola continuing to sing, the slightly lessened volume on the last half of the held notes was not noticeable.

    She knew her vibrato was out of control and sincerely asked for help in taming it, so I was able to be frank about how to improve our sound. However, these techniques may not work as well for you if every member of the choir is a warbler... haha.

    Good luck!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    the pitch she sang warbled around the pitch we were trying to achieve and didn't really hit it.

    I've heard singers whose vibrato fought against the tempo of the piece. Their subdivision of the beat wasn't the same as everyone else's.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Janet, thanks for the good ideas. I didn't have enough courage to say those to 'the singer' in my schola yet (male singer, pretty loud). I just say to the schola to listen to each other and hope he gets the idea. He loves to come to sing chants, afraid to hurt his feelings, but he really slows down our singing very often. As a director, I feel like pulling 100 pounds of wagon in uphill when it happens.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I'd suggest talking to the singer in front of the other singers (wait, don't get crazy yet!) and tell the group that blend is something that only you are able to create since they cannot hear themselves as a group while they are singing. Each voice has a different ability to blend and stand out depending upon the timbre of the voice and the level at which they sing.

    "For example, Bill here has a voice that is naturally louder than others, great for singing by himself, but in the schola, you will see me gesturing to him, giving him hand signals like this (show them) to back off a bit at times, while I may gesture to others in the group to bring up their sound a bit or even more. (demonstrate) It will take awhile to build this ensemble of sound, but as we work on it, our voices will join together in a sound that will become the sound of our group.

    As you work with him and the group, make him sing softer than he should, and then bring him up to a level that works. This way he will not feel that he is being shushed, but made an important part of the group.

    This should solve all the tempo problems, since he will be able to hear the singers around him better.

    This way you will not hurt his feelings, but rather show your support and interest in having him in the group.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thanks, Noel. I like the idea, very elegant approach I would say. I shall try. (I noticed some, most of them have been in regular choirs for a long time in my case, also have hard time singing soft.)
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    I'm currently dealing with multiple problems, this just one among them.

    1) The choir has never been properly trained in things like breathing, diction, vowel formation or even basic rhythm and counting. In fact, they've never in their history had any kind of regular rehearsal schedule or obligation, and aggressively resisted attempts last year to set up a day and time for rehearsal that didn't "fit" with their schedule.

    2) The choir is made up of primarily middle-aged and elderly voices; some can read music but can't match pitch, some can't match pitch and learn by rote, one in particular has what I call a "car-alarm" vibrato; most of them have learned their part incorrectly on hymns and songs that are a core part of their cultural music (Polish "village-style" singing wherein the altos sing what they believe is the alto part, whether it matches what's on the page or not.)

    3) I believe there is a "literacy" problem for many in situations similar to mine. When you say "unison" or "melody only" they believe this to mean "their" melody, that is, "their part". To get them to understand that melody only means melody only produced more heel-digging and goad-kicking than I've every witnessed anywhere.

    4) As I indicated earlier, I serve a national parish for Polonia (by canonical definition), and have a constant struggle with "tradition" and "custom" and the use of these labels as vehicles for excusing care and attention to preparing the music so that it is well-done. They seem to think things like, "louder is better" or "this is the 'traditional' way to sing these hymns."

    Combined these with the fact that the older or more ossified members constantly insist "that's not the way we learned it" when presented with the actual notes on the page, implying that that's the end of the story and don't waste your time teaching anything different. The younger folk, and those who may be interested in singing in the choir I believe are often frustrated by these elements, and some may know of these problems and decide not to join the choir at all.

    I've been at this parish for one year, and have seen and heard all I need in order to put into place a systematic program to turn these problems around. It won't be easy, and it will take patience and a certain degree of persistence when saying "no" to certain things. Fortunately I have the full backing of the Pastor.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Maybe you already do, but learning something new like, Gregorian chant, from scratch be refreshing for them? Just as a part of their repertoire.
    New vocal excercises with pure vowels (a,e,i,o,u), learning new notations (neums), legato singing and good phrasing from simple melody, learning to sing actual one-line songs together and to sing softly (this is my challenge also. Some are taught "the louder, the better." Maybe too much singing German chorales style hymns?). I found that learning to sing Gregorian chant truly improves many musical skills that can be applied to other music.
    Some of my schola members still don't come to practice regularly, but I tried to focus on the devoted members and thank everyone for coming to practice.(These days people are busy, very busy!!) As they improve and advance on their singing, more and more seemed to be coming to practice regularly.
    (also I ask them to pray Novena to St. Ceceilia for our schola.)
    Best wishes!!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    For David: at my parish, the choirmaster has handled the scheduling problem by placing the rehearsal in the hour immediately before the Sunday Mass.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    That would be a solution, save for the fact that the "choir" doesn't sing for regular Sunday Masses, and if they did, it would be at 12:00 Noon, because the former "Solemn High Mass" slot (10 AM) was taken by the Mass in Polish, and that choir refuses to rehearse under any circumstances, period. Add to that the fact that there is no dedicated choir rehearsal space (as I suppose is true for many parish churches) and the Rosary is regularly recited before every Mass beginning at the half-hour before, we'd not be able to practice in an effective way.

    But then again, the tougher situations were faced daily by the saints.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    Yurodivi and I both work in parts of the country where every vowel is a dipthong, especially if the note is longer than an 8th note. Thus, Latin can be a better vocal solution.

    Alas, I have found that the only way the "singer with a problem" knows that you are talking about him or her is to speak to that individual directly and the Frogman's script is excellent. A general "the altos need to pull back a bit" means that the altos you want to come forward will all get quiet while Foghorna Leghorn continues to bleat.

    The non-rehearsing choir is an opportunity to take years off your time in Purgatory (and possibly off your life, if you let them drive you nuts). I don't think it's possible to correct mislearned parts or "traditional, but non-notated" versions. The only hope is something they don't know beforehand, but without rehearsals when can they learn anything new?
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    You are right Mary Jane and Noel. When I said sing softly to the group, the ones who are already soft got softer while the one I really wanted, remained the same (or louder to others). I have to gather up my courage and say to him directly. (he is old and very proud that he can sing, and have been in choirs all his life... Oh, well, I'll try.)
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Whenever I have to deal with this situation, I just remind myself that I will most likely be in their place someday sooner rather than later: proud, experienced, wanting to do something that I've loved my whole life, and unable to do it as well as I used to. I apply the Golden Rule in the hope that some whippersnapper will let me sing, even though I'm not particularly good at it anymore.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Thank you to everyone for your advice and ideas. I feel like I have at least a vague notion of what to try. I will report back (here, and on my blog [musicforsunday.com]) to let everyone know what works and what doesn't.

    Considering church attendance demographics, I'd imagine aging singers is an issue every choir director deals with. Are there not books? Recognized experts? Podcasts?

    Dan said he has done "significant research." Is it available for our use? Are you going to publish your findings? Go on a tour? Hold seminars? (Please....)

    My vocal pedagogy classes were all geared toward younger singers (children, teen, college), moving them toward classical (opera) singing. Are any music schools going in depth on aging singers, or similar issues (adult amateur, adult choir vocals, vocal pathology)?

    Any way this could be added as a class or session at any of the various conferences, colloquiams, and conventions (from CMAA to NPM to ACDA)?


    Anyway- enough rambling-
    Thanks so much to everyone who has weighed in. I'm glad I've found this forum.