Though there are many, many legitimate ways to pronounce Latin, my preference is for a forward, closed "e" sound, a sound that does not exist in English but is familiar to French speakers (words like "c'est" or "été"). Using a long "a" as in ray is actually two vowels (a diphthong, "eh"plus "ee"), which doesn't get the purity of sound that I want. So, telling a choir to use "e" as in "red" is a good first step to eliminating the diphthong. But, you're right, it's a bit of a stale sound -- more advanced choirs can usually brighten it up a bit without crossing the line into Dreaded Diphthong Land.

I noticed at SD Chant Intensive, and then again at Loyala Colloquium that Scott Turkington consistently enunciated the "e" in the manner Olbash describes, and asked Turk whether his usage was inadvertent or, duh, on purpose. Dumb Charles. But after being excoriated by an undergrad choral teacher decades ago, I'd stuck to the closed "Dead Fred" and drilled that into my curricular/church choirs. Now, if I'm chanting a verse I can use Olbash's forward, closed and brighter sound. Trying to nuance the choir, that's another story...

I've always thought it was more like what stereotypical Canadians say, eh? (Oh, if only people had stuck with the classical, "waynee weedee weekee" pronunciation that distinguishes between long and short vowels--hey, it was good enough for "Kysar" and "Kickero....")

Jeff, I pronounce it cheh-li always, always always. And I insist on my choir doing same. And I prefer, unlike a lot of people on this Forum the eh sound most everywhere. Esp here in East TN, the other when combined with the local accent is unbearable to me. At Westminster Choir College 'eh' is preferred, and if you listen to their recordings that's what you'll hear for Church Latin things. Not saying this is the way opera should be pronounced. I just think it's easier to get a consistent sound from multi-voices.
Also, every Latin pronunciation book I've ever seen by vocal authorities ask for 'eh'. In England, though, you hear the long e much more frequently.
I got chewed out rather thoroughly on this question not too long ago though. I'm sticking to my guns in this 'right-to-carry' state! LOLOL
Donna

Hi, Donna.

Again, in all the manuals, this is a very common suggestion for "e"

My grandma LITERALLY got her knuckles hit hard by a nun if she pronounced "e" as "ay" (not kidding)

But, I'm just saying, I've heard Austrian priests, Australian priests, German priests, Canadian priests, French priests, American priests, and Hispanic priests say the 1962 Missal, and their "e" often becomes an "ay" (Laudamus te, Benedicimus te, etc.). I was not expecting this from Italian priests, but "usage rules."

If you say "cheh-lee," more power to you!

As you know, in medieval MSS, "coeli" was often written as "celi"

It seems to me that since ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation is italianate, the ideal is to say everything the way a native Italian speaker would naturally speak. The problem is that Italians don't have a consistent way of pronouncing e - they alternate between a more open and a more closed sound depending on context. It makes sense to simplify and just pronounce it one way consistently. The important thing is to avoid dipthongs at all costs. So if you live in the part of the world where "ay" gets a heavy dipthong, sure, make them say "eh". I live in Canada and I find we don't have this problem; I encourage something a little closer to "ay"

Well, let's not get into how the European pronunciations- they do not use the ch sound for ce or ci or cae or coe- it's all a sibilant 's'
Donna

these are the kind of conversations that it's safer to sit back and observe!

If I may add something, if you're going for Church Latin, then I believe it is never appropriate to pronounce the 'e' like a diphthong. Actually, based on what I hear, the 'e' in "red" may not actually be strong enough because typical English is a little looser with the sound. If it helps any, look up what the "e accent grave" sounds like in French. But the way to make up for the closed syllable is to pull back your lips while singing like you're making a smile. I don't know if this is "standard", but it's what I was taught.
I hope this helps. God bless!

Claire

We have a spanish congregation and they pronounce the R very well. I am constantly talking to the choir about flipping the r. Tough thing to change 'out herrrrrre in the wayest!'

This reminds me of a cantor I used to know who really worked hard at making the "e" in Alleluia sound like the "e" in "red". Very strange, indeed. When I am working with good singers I simply ask for brighter "e"s when I think they are needed. I have a shelf of books that talk about how Latin was sung in different regions. I don't feel any compunction to be dogmatic about this.

yurodivi: sounds like you're down south (sooth)

Yes, Spanish-speakers can pronounce the r much nicer! (I speak Spanish, too -- as a second language -- although I'm not Hispanic). I was just explaining to my Dad last night when practicing the Hallelujah chorus that he must sing "Foreveh", NOT "ForeveR"!

I also love hearing the opening phrase of the Verdi pronounced "Reh - kwee - AYum."

Heh.

Hint

unless your schola is comprised of all pros the eh always winds up sounding in between unless everyone is strictly tutored to get a true eh sound

more advanced choirs

Of course, they could also simply sing the bright AY and in their heads, place the letter "H" after the vowel. This eliminates the dipthong, except for the singers who cannot both think and sing at the same time.

My experience is the same as Felicity's. I often hear myself singing the most remarkably awful vowels when I'm doing that multi-tasking directing/singing/wondering what is the guy in the third row doing and why is there no air in this room? thing.

So we keep working at rehearsal and I always hope for the best.