You are not a dinosaur. They are. How I abhore bi-lingual Masses. Half the congregation only understands half the Mass. Priests seem to be OK with having folks read translations for this, but not for Latin. What a shame.

The Spanish speakers don't like it???

Okay, I realize that they may have received teaching that Latin is for dinosaurs, or they may be tired of singing in yet another language they imperfectly know. But still, Latin I would think would be much more comfy than English. Like singing in Old English or Middle English, for English speakers. Comfy.

Are there different Latin pronunciations in Hispanic areas, which they previously got used to? Is it possible that following an Italianate pronunciation is what's straining them? (Fighting the battle of Spanish vs Latin phonetic spelling? I mean, I know I fought Classical vs Church Latin, and it was a real cognitive challenge for a bit.) Would they be more positive about singing Hispanic Latin authors, like Prudentius or more recent ones from the New World, and could that be used as a sort of grease to the wheels or gateway drug? Or is this really an objection to chant or classical music, more than to the language, and they're just fixing on the language because it stands out?

I would say that, while making it clear that you mean to retain Latin (and English and Spanish), it wouldn't hurt to ask what all your choir members find difficult or unlikeable about singing in non-native languages, in general and specifically, and ask for suggestions as to what could make it easier. Giving people the feeling that they're helping to steer the bus may help them enjoy being on board. (And hey, you might get some good insights and some good suggestions. Probably you will.)

After listening to them, do at least one thing that responds to what they said, and tell people that this is your response to X, specifically. (You can do more than that, or ignore more than that. And your response doesn't have to be what they said, but it should clearly address a problem.) Then they will know that you didn't just ask them as an exercise in futility. Meanwhile, you won't feel so much like you're dealing with a faceless mass of choir members, because probably you'll have heard all different Stuff.

Are there people from other ethnic gruops in your parish, like Orinetals (I am one)? If there are, manybe preferring one foreign lanugage over other languages, might keep those people from your choir. If the parish wants to be inclusive of all the ethnic gruops and fair, it should be Latin, the Mother language of the Church. I don't know why anyone would object the concept of we are all children of God, and belong to one Universal Church, and try to learn at least one language that is the Church's , instead of trying to learn ten different languages which may not still be enough. Of course once in a while you could add hymns in other languages, if you want to. But please remember that there are true minorities of the monirity who want to be included also.

Wait, so they don't like Latin because they don't understand it, but they're okay with either English or Spanish they don't understand? that's kinda weird.

At my home parish the Divine Liturgy is jointly in Serbian/Church Slavonic and English. Multiple languages can be done naturally and nicely, so long as people are familiar with the order of the liturgy and have missals with translations. But the Divine Liturgy is exactly the same every Sunday, even the litanies, with just a few propers which are sung by the choir or priest in English or in both English and Serbian. Therefore when it goes from one language to another, it is obvious what is being said because it's the same every Sunday. As long as you know "Lord have mercy," "to thee, O Lord," and "Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit..." you can follow along with the Liturgy in any language. (in this case, "Gospodi pomiluj," "tebje Gospodi," and "Slava Otcu i Sinu i Svatomu Duhu...")

Considering the somewhat fluid nature of the Novus Ordo--it seems different every time I see it--using multiple languages makes things sound confused. You can't always tell what is going on because sometimes it's this way, sometimes it's that way... so here's where a unifying liturgical language, Latin, is a Godsend. (I've been to a Spanish-English bilingual Mass and it sounded confused to me. Also they had a mariachi band playing so I literally had to stop myself from bursting out laughing in the middle of Mass.)

Latin is wonderful and it's not that hard to figure out what's what. "Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus" is VERY OBVIOUSLY "holy, holy, holy" ... I mean, seriously. And people ought to know the translations of the ordinary by heart anyhow. I would keep the ordinary and even the priest's prayers in Latin, everything that does not change from day to day, and then just do the propers in English or Spanish mixture. I would understand complaints if the propers were consistently in Latin and no translations were given -- I mean, it is best to understand as much of the Mass as possible.

You can't do every language for everyone. Best to keep it within your tradition. Then on Pascha you can whip out the paschal troparion in every language imaginable (I've heard it in Yu'pik eskimo, Japanese, Swahili...) and people can have fun with different languages. It would be impossible to keep that going during the whole Mass all the time though.

I find it very interesting that only we in the OF are being confronted by these rather distressing turns of event. The EF is so clearly delineated....

In the EF:

The language is Latin. People's complaints cannot change that.

The Music is approved by the Church. People's complaints cannot change that.

Guitars, shakers, drums, the piano....and a myriad of other things including rain sticks, are not may not be played at the EF Mass.

They are not complaining about the Latin of the EF, they are complaining about the EF and there is no negotiating room to make them happy.

Donna,

A highly-placed deacon told me unofficially that the number of spanish=speaking congregants in this Diocese exceed the english-speaking ones.

Noel
The Bishop has not banned Latin. Should have said that. He wants the assembly parts mostly in English. He certainly has not restricted what the choir sings, or the Chant Mass that we sing during Lent. nd we sing quite a bit in Latin during Triduum.
Donna

I know nothing about that
Donna

In the end, it usually works like this. The hispanic congregation (generally, mind you) will only tolerate Mass in Spanish or English if it's the only one (like Easter Vigil). The English speakers only want English and "put up" with the Spanish for Holy Thursday (while some love it and see it as a way of welcoming the Spanish congregation to "their" Mass). Everyone objects to Latin because they have been taught that it represents the old way that was rejected at Vatican II. Ironically, Latin could unite a language-separated parish, but this course is rejected. I have to say that I hear the most grumbling on Holy Thursday, more so than the rest of the year. What happened to the ethnic parishes? That seemed to work for a good century.

I'm in a polyglot parish myself. It is made up of three distinct congregations: 1) "off-the-boat" Poles (who may have lived in the US for many, many years) who speak Polish as their primary language and speak English in broken fashion only; these folks cling tenaciously not only to the national Polish traditions and customs, but are also very stubborn about the variations of customs, dialects and hymn tunes that come from their particular villages versus those of other villages; 2) Polish-Americans who are second or third-generation American born to "off-the-boat" Poles who know enough of the language to be able to sing the hymns and follow along during the Mass in Polish; they have been raised steeped in the culture and may or may not speak both Polish and English with equal fluency, often they can read it (that is, pronounce it), but don't understand the spoken language (during the homily, etc.); and 3) English-speaking folk who can neither speak or read Polish with any level of fluency. Many of them are Polish "in name only." These are Catholics who attend the parish because of the strong orthodox traditions that are maintained there, or have family ties to it, and may enjoy the Polish customs despite their inability to understand the language.

I have heard random complaints and been given various instructions regarding the use of Polish and Latin at Masses. Some folk who are not Polish and cannot read or speak it are resentful at times of the heavy use of Polish music at "mixed" celebrations (Christmas Midnight among them). The Poles don't want (or don't like) the use of Latin at the Polish Language Mass with the exception of the "Asperges me" and "Vidi aquam", which were retained when the NO was instituted. The entire remainder of the Mass is in Polish including homily and announcements. We use a polyglot missalette that provides the readings in Polish on the left-hand page and English on the right, but the hymn texts aren't translated. The remaining Masses are in English, with some Latin being slowly introduced.

The parish is familiar with, and frequently sings, the Missa Jubilate Deo and the Gloria from Mass XIII, and the "O salutaris Hositia" and "Tantum ergo" texts sung at benediction, but beyond that their Latin repertoire is non-existent.The Mass schedule is such that what would likely be the highest-attended and likeliest to provide an opportunity for a greater use of Latin is the 10 AM, which is the Polish language Mass, and is the least-attended. The choir for that Mass is a loosely-organized group of folk who gather before Mass and sing everything, but they do not rehearse, and therefore there is no opportunity to introduce new material without great effort. No other organized and rehearsed choir sings regularly on Sundays; they only prepare and sing for select "solemn high" celebrations (Christmas Midnight, Easter Sunday, Confirmation, 40 hours devotions), and the participants need to be able to at least pronounce Polish because of the use of the language in these celebrations. Those who struggle with Polish I'm sure find participation in this "seasonal choir" frustrating at times. There had been attempts to start a regular choir for Sunday 12 Noon, but either the people weren't willing to commit to every Sunday, didn't like the time, or weren't willing to commit to any kind of regular program-year-based rehearsal schedule.

I have no desire to run down the Polish traditions or indeed even the celebration of a Mass in the Polish vernacular. Quite the contrary, I'm truly enjoying learning about these customs and traditions, the various devotional practices, and even learning how to read (pronounce) and loosely speak the language. What I do find frustrating is that it would appear that the balance between serving a wider parish of people who don't speak Polish is getting bound up and bogged down by the ethnic Polish identity expressed in the language used at Mass, rather than recognizing that the church no longer serves Polonia exclusively and would probably become more attractive if we embraced a "reform of the reform" mentality that employed more use of Latin while still preserving Polish devotional practices and customs without being bound to the language alone.

Again, this is a wonderful parish. I'm afraid they run the risk of becoming hollowed out as the younger generations of Poles and non-Polish folk become frustrated with the culture barrier and their inability to fully participate in the various liturgical celebrations because of this barrier.

It is not for me to propose a solution, or even suggest that my observations are accurate. I find it interesting that while many ethnicity-identified Irish, German and Italian parishes have over the years become exclusively Hispanic as the ethnicity of the neighborhoods changed, our parish is slowly losing the strength of its ethnic identity not by an influx of another ethnicity, but because the language itself presents an impediment.

That said, I wonder that if we adopted the model many EF parishes use, i.e., everything in Latin with the use of good polyglot hand missals, and the readings, homily and announcements delivered in English and/or Polish, many of these problems might be resolved.

If it is the choir that does not like Latin or does not understand it, then some simple steps might alleviate that problem. I used to rehearse Latin propers without any translation, and then one somewhat outspoken person kept asking, what does that mean? So I began to translate each text before we sang it. One member was good in Latin, and I would often ask her to translate. But i also asked the group to translate. Most of them could not, but I pointed out some of the most common words and a few of the most common cases for nouns. More of them volunteered to translate some words. One person went to the local college and took some Latin courses, she did not stop until she had a master's degree in Latin. More recently, one member volunteered to lead a Latin group, meeting once a month and learning basic grammar, translating the propers for the upcoming Sundays. At this point the translation exercises are a group effort. One needs a little break between pieces, so that the little time it takes is hardly lost time at all.

My children's schola learned "O paniss dulcissime" a few weeks ago. It's really a simple chant that we can do solfege easily (mostsly stepswise motion with emphasis on tonic and dominant.) We also talked about the meaning of individual words, (their book has word by word translation), and then we discussed about the meaning of the 'sweetest bread...' and our faith in the real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist. I was so proud of them that they knew so well about their faith. Last week, they sang it so beautifully in the Mass after the communion.

With adult and children's schola I try to do as much as I can about the meaning of the each word and the general meaning, but most important thing is that we know we are praying to God. And even if we didn't have chance to learn all the words at the first time singing, it seems that the more we sing, the more we discover the deeper meaning of each chant.

We have Latin class that many of my schola take once a week, and some of my children's schola learn Latin at home (homeschooled). But I found singing chant also helps them to expand their vocabularies in Latin. Latin may not be easy, but like my 11 year old boy says, it's like learning about God; you don't know everything at first, but every time you study and sing, you discover and learn more. I think that's one of the reason I like singing chants than other songs.

I'm simply saying it is better to understand what you are singing. Is it better NOT to understand what you are singing? Is it better NOT to know than to know?
Surely knowledgeis better than ignorance. I don't agree that it can sort of seep in w/o having some idea of what you're singing about! Actually, I was thinking of singing art songs more than Gregorian Chant, but I do think one is better off knowing, than not knowing. I am a lover of words first, then music.

Donna

But, Noel, now they know what the second verse means. Isn't that better? I always, always ask the kids what a phrase or even a word means. Then the next time they see it they know and understand more. I even do this with my adult choir.
Doesn't it give you cold chills when you sing 'sanguine' in the Ave verum? What if you didn't know what that word meant? That's when you realize that Mozart or or whoever wasn't just putting together pretty sounds.

Donna

They understand the second verse....but what about all the other second verses they have sung over the years?

I was once voicing an organ for Carlo Curley for a recital. Had the pedal really booming away....he came in and had me reduce it, saying, "Less is more."

"...because when they sing Latin they know the words are sacred."

I couldn't agree more. Allow me to share this most holy prayer:

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Nam liber tempor cum soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet doming id quod mazim placerat facer possim assum. Typi non habent claritatem insitam; est usus legentis in iis qui facit eorum claritatem. Investigationes demonstraverunt lectores legere me lius quod ii legunt saepius. Claritas est etiam processus dynamicus, qui sequitur mutationem consuetudium lectorum. Mirum est notare quam littera gothica, quam nunc putamus parum claram, anteposuerit litterarum formas humanitatis per seacula quarta decima et quinta decima. Eodem modo typi, qui nunc nobis videntur parum clari, fiant sollemnes in futurum.

I don't make fun of prayers in your non-Catholic church that you are employed by...

You and Trautmann can share a bench.

The use of this Latin text is used as a filler for graphic designs since even the most inebriated ad exec will not start arguing about the ad copy when the ad designer is only seeking approval for a page layout...why Latin? Dead Language.

You can chant the classic Winnie Ille Pu in a Catholic church anytime you want. The people won't know you are being disrespectful. But God will.

Blasphemy against Winnie the Pooh? What has this forum degenerated into? Is outrage!!!!

For what it's worth, I like to be able to understand the words, too. If it is not in English, a translation underneath or near the text is a very good thing to have.

True, so true...

And I'd like to go back to David Andrew's point about priests not having to be fluent to chant the Mass in Latin. To me, fluency implies that you can carry on a conversation in the language. Not the same as being able to chant Mass well. I hear many priests singing Mass in Spanish, but only one or two who actually are fluent in the language when they speak. Listening to them give a homily in Spanish is painful for all listening to them.

Donna

I agree with what you've written there, David, and I agree that we should avoid making too strong a case for fluency. At the same time I simply wish to point out the benefits of deep knowledge of various aspects of the liturgy (Latin, English, modal theory, history, etc), lest the bare minimum of being able to pronounce Latin (a fine qualifier for saying the EF) should become the practical standard in parishes. As anything, it's a very fine line to walk between encouraging growth and avoiding intimidating the unenlightened. The main reason I love being a music student is that I have yet to learn anything truly useless; everything comes back sooner or later.

Regarding choirs, I think those word-for-word translations are superb for accomplishing a greater intimacy with the Latin language. For example, I recall singing Durufle's Requiem in November, where the conductor reminded us in the Offertory that musically "ore leonis" is the mouth of the lion opening up.

I don't think people here are advocating fluency in Latin, per se. What they are advocating is fluency in the Mass. For example, when you sing the ordinaries in Latin, you OUGHT to know what they mean, shouldn't you, in English? They're not saying that everyone should be able to read Cicero or Augustine as well. They're saying that when you say the Mass in Latin (as a layperson or priest) you should know what you are saying. So for a priest saying the EF, he doesn't need to know maybe every tiny little thing, but he should at least know the ordinaries and the canon, etc., by heart. When he's saying, "hoc est corpus meum," shouldn't he be aware of the English translation?! Fluency in Latin would mean he could grab Augustine's Confessions and read it; fluency in the Mass means he knows what goes where and what it means. If we were singing the Creed, shouldn't we know what we're saying when?

Another example. I know the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom pretty well by heart. At my Serbian Orthodox parish, they do about half English, half Slavonic/Serbian (Slavonic being their liturgical language). I know what I'm saying when I say Gospodi pomiluj (Lord have mercy), or Slava Otcu, i Sinu, i Svatomu Duhu... (Glory be to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit)... I couldn't even say hello in Serbian but I know what I am saying when I am in the Liturgy.

Are some of y'all really saying it is not better to know what you're singing means? Or are you just saying it's not necessary? In that case we're talking past each other, because we are saying it's BETTER to know what you're saying (although for the ordinaries at least I would say it is necessary to know what they mean).

I want to be more literate (not fluent, literate) in eclessiastical Latin. I'm fairly good at it already because I've been singing Latin for a number of years, and because of the many cognates that are shared between Latin and English.

I certainly take time to discuss the meanings of Latin texts with those choirs who I train.

I'm not advocating laziness or lack of care with respect to continually learning the meanings of the texts we sing in Latin. Should we make a policy that only those who possess a high degree of literacy in Latin should be permitted to sing in scholas or lead them?

Are some of y'all really saying it is not better to know what you're singing means? Or are you just saying it's not necessary? In that case we're talking past each other, because we are saying it's BETTER to know what you're saying (although for the ordinaries at least I would say it is necessary to know what they mean).

Why would anyone NOT want to undestand what they are singing? Grrr.

Donna & Jam- Do you really believe that there are people here who are even suggesting this?

*sigh*