Volunteer Choir leaders needing guidance
  • dranzal
    Posts: 4
    I have been in my parish choir for 23 years, and other choirs for years before that. I have been the leader for the last 3 years and the music I choose is more "traditional/neo-traditional" than any of the other choirs I've been in.
    That said, a "trained" liturgist suggested to me this morning that most of what parishes do, musically, is NOT liturgical and incorrect.

    1. I agree that most parishes (ALL parishes I've been to) do not know the propers/antiphons and, instead, do hymns of varying quality. How much of a problems is this "four hymn sandwich" type of planning. That's literally all I've ever experienced, even in the most conservative parish I've visited. This is all I experience at any nearby parish and even the Cathedral I visited in Idaho and the traditional Catholic college my daughter graduated from.

    2. Is it appropriate at all for a choir to sing a choral piece, such as "This is My Word" by Pepper Choplin or "Surely the Presence" during or after Communion? I've seen some better choirs do this, but the liturgist I saw today very much frowned upon it, even if the words of the piece are explicitly Scriptural.

    3. I saw mention of "Three Days" in another thread. The only one I know (recently learned) is Thaxted. I agree that the theology is a little soft, so I wrote an additional, theologically meaty, verse. Is this the one that everyone dislikes?

    Sorry for the randomness. I'm new.
    Thanked by 1probe
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 861
    @dranzal, welcome to the forum. After nearly 50 years as choir member I dedicated myself to doing a hymnological study of my parish of St. Mary's, it's called A Parish Inheritance

    It contains a definition of Catholic hymn in the Church’s own language and presents the hymns we sang past and present in my Parish, and how the repertoire changed overtime. I established a four fold classification C1-C4: liturgical, devotional, Protestant origin, and not suitable. Along with other resources that can help pastors, pastoral council, musicians, choir members, determine and identify if hymns are appropriate for Mass. I think this can help you as it covers some of your concerns.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen dranzal
  • probe
    Posts: 197
    Welcome to the forum, from a recent member thinking about the same things.
    I look forward to the replies from the experienced members.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,694
    Your 'trained' liturgist is probably largely correct, but the authoritative source is the GIRM for your country [eg (for USA) :- https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html ]
    Read through that and you will see that there is a great deal of flexibility. Most of those on this forum, and most 'liturgists' would prefer the texts officially proposed by the Church, as would I, but in practice most places hardly use them.
    Thanked by 1dranzal
  • novusgordo
    Posts: 27
    If your parish is currently in the "four-hymn sandwich" mindset, the absolute first thing you need to start doing is making sure you're singing as much of the Order of Mass as you can, and especially the things listed in the "first degree" in Musicam sacram (refer to paras. 28–31). Don't worry about trying to replace things you're already singing until you make sure you're singing all the things you're supposed to!

    (And yes, part of this is going to mean training the clergy of the parish to sing. You can't have a sung Mass without the clergy at least chanting things recto tono or to some of the simpler sung tones.)
    Thanked by 1LauraKaz
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,694
    But notice that some things are changed between MS and GIRM (currently 4th? edition) particularly at #31(c) the Alleluia before the Gospel now must be sung, or if not sung should be omitted! (I only ever knew one priest omit it).
    [EDIT] the directive in its strong form is here at #23 https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/general-introduction-to-the-lectionary-second-edition-2189
    Thanked by 2Roborgelmeister CHGiffen
  • probe
    Posts: 197
    I hadn't noticed that 'must/should not'. The Gospel Acclamation is only sung by two of the rota of readers at our Mass, the rest say they spare the congregation their unmusical voices. I checked that here and indeed the guidance says the same except it says 'may' rather than 'should' which is more permissive:
    https://www.catholicbishops.ie/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Singing-the-Mystery-of-Faith.pdf
    The ‘alleluia’ of the acclamation is normally sung by a cantor and repeated by all. The Gospel Acclamation is intended to be sung, and should rank high in the list of musical priorities. It is also among the easier of the liturgical texts to sing and greatly facilitates congregational singing. If it is not sung it may be omitted, because of its innately musical character.

    The Vatican document also refers to incense, which reads like a very High Mass to me. I have seen it in one of the Masses on a Sunday in a cathedral, otherwise I've rarely seen it.
  • dranzal
    Posts: 4
    the things listed in the "first degree" in Musicam sacram (refer to paras. 28–31)


    In your experience, what are the parts of the Mass that choirs commonly miss?
    Parishes I've been to commonly sing:
    Entrance hymn
    Kyrie; Gloria
    Psalm; Gospel Acclamation
    Offertory hymn
    Sanctus; Memorial Acc.; Amen; Agnus Dei
    Eucharist Hymn
    Recessional Hymn

    I see the Lord's Prayer listed as 1st degree. I had not realized this, and will mention to Fr.
  • dranzal
    Posts: 4
    Most of those on this forum, and most 'liturgists' would prefer the texts officially proposed by the Church, as would I, but in practice most places hardly use them.


    I have long been familiar with "Sing to the Lord" document. The flexibility is certainly exercised by most parishes. It was the force with which she insisted that a song was "not liturgical" and not to be sung at Mass that gave me pause. She said this before subbing as pianist for a choir that I know uses more modern selections (Spirit and Song).

    I've been singing for decades, often in choirs with other trained liturgists who would include beautiful polyphony-esque anthems during Communion.
    My conclusion is that "trained liturgists" apply the relevant documents differently. This is fine since flexibility is built in. They should not, however, insist on their application being the only correct one. The goal is proper, reverent music with sound theology and scripture preferably executed in a pleasing way.
  • dranzal
    Posts: 4
    Another question about flexibility.
    Do all the chosen anthems have to necessarily be from approved sources? Is this the case even if the text is very scriptural? Thinking specifically of "This is My Word" by Pepper Choplin which I mentioned above.
    I was in a parish that loved that piece. It is very beautiful and scriptural.

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