Is it still a "responsorial psalm" when it's not from Psalms?
  • tandrews
    Posts: 235
    Case in point: For Trinity Sunday in N.O. land it's Daniel.

    What should it properly be called? Responsory?
  • CaleferinkCaleferink
    Posts: 457
    The Lectionary still calls it the Responsorial Psalm, so you could still call it the Responsorial Psalm.

    FWIW, the Gradual in the TLM is also from Daniel 3.
  • btodorovich87
    Posts: 112
    I've used the term Responsorial Canticle.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,303
    I labeled it "Responsorial Antiphon".
  • GerardH
    Posts: 678
    I also used Responsorial Canticle, but I suppose 'psalm' can be a generic term as well as a specific one. The Psalms themselves refer to psalms, as in Ps 91(92):

    It is good to praise the Lord,
    and to sing psalms to your name, O Most High,

    Generically, it should just mean a sacred song.
  • francis
    Posts: 11,376
    Mr Chat came up with this…

    The Gradual is one of the oldest surviving elements of the Roman Mass and has roots that reach back to the worship of ancient Israel.

    1. Origins in the Synagogue

    Before Christianity, Jewish synagogue worship included the reading of Scripture followed by the singing of a Psalm. The earliest Christians retained this pattern in their liturgy. After a reading, a cantor would sing verses from a Psalm while the congregation responded with a refrain. This was known as a responsorial psalm.

    2. The Early Church (1st–4th Centuries)

    By the fourth century, the Roman liturgy had developed a more formal structure:

    * Old Testament reading
    * Psalm (the ancestor of the Gradual)
    * Epistle
    * Alleluia
    * Gospel

    The Gradual therefore originated as the Psalm sung between the readings. It was already established by the fourth century.

    3. Why Is It Called a “Gradual”?

    The name comes from the Latin gradus (“step”).

    The cantor traditionally sang the chant from the steps of the ambo (the elevated platform from which Scripture was proclaimed). Because it was sung “from the step,” it became known as the Graduale or Gradual.

    4. Development into Gregorian Chant (6th–9th Centuries)

    Originally the chant was relatively simple and highly participatory. Over time it became increasingly elaborate.

    By the early Middle Ages, especially under the influence of the Roman chant tradition associated with Pope Gregory I, the Gradual evolved into one of the most ornate chants of the Mass. It became the responsibility of trained singers in the schola cantorum rather than the whole congregation.

    The melodies were eventually incorporated into what we now call Gregorian Chant, though modern scholarship generally believes the chant repertory developed several centuries after Gregory himself.

    5. The Medieval High Point

    During the Middle Ages, the Gradual became one of the most musically sophisticated parts of the Mass.

    Characteristics:

    * Long melismas (many notes on a single syllable)
    * Highly trained soloists
    * Rich Gregorian melodies
    * Sometimes sung in polyphony by composers of the medieval schools of Paris

    Many Graduals contain some of the most beautiful music in the entire Gregorian repertoire.

    6. The Gradual Book

    Eventually the word “Gradual” came to mean not only the chant itself but also the book containing the chants of the Mass.

    The official Roman book is the:

    * Graduale Romanum

    This book contains the Proper chants for the liturgical year.

    7. The Tridentine Mass

    In the Mass standardized after the Council of Trent, the Gradual was sung:

    Epistle → Gradual → Alleluia (or Tract) → Gospel

    This remained the standard arrangement for centuries.

    8. Vatican II and the Modern Mass

    After the reforms following Second Vatican Council, the simpler Responsorial Psalm became the usual option between the readings.

    However, the Gradual was not abolished.

    The current Roman Missal still permits the Gradual as an alternative to the Responsorial Psalm, although it is most commonly heard today in monasteries, cathedral choirs, Latin Mass communities, and parishes with strong Gregorian chant programs.

    In Summary

    The Gradual is:

    1. A descendant of the ancient Jewish responsorial psalm.
    2. One of the oldest musical elements of the Mass.
    3. Named because it was sung from the “step” (gradus) of the ambo.
    4. A central part of Gregorian chant tradition.
    5. Still officially part of the Roman Rite today, although often replaced by the Responsorial Psalm in ordinary parish celebrations.

    Many liturgical historians consider the Gradual to be one of the purest surviving links between the worship of the early Church and the solemn Gregorian tradition that flourished throughout the Middle Ages.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen hilluminar
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 169
    The CBW literally labels it as a Responsorial Canticle.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,213
    Just to pick a bone with Mr Chat. The idea that the chant started off as a simple thing and gradually became more complex is pure fantasy. No one knows what the chant was like before the first notated chants.
    In my experience of the world, simplification or streamlining is usually a secondary process that happens to something that has already been created.
    Thanked by 1LauraKaz
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,250
    Who or what is this “Mr Chat” thing?
  • davido
    Posts: 1,213
    An AI search client like Chat GPT
  • francis
    Posts: 11,376
    Yes, I am testing out Mr. chat to see what you all think about what he says. Mr. chat is highly controversial these days and under intense scrutiny. No AI is ever going to replace human thinking. Just saying.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 492
    It's a psalm, not a Psalm.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • GerardH
    Posts: 678
    I think this forum is better off without any AI slop input, even if the algorithm is personified as 'Mr Chat'. Nobody comes here for that.