Rheinberger Mass in E Flat
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 580
    I think this is such a fine work… but the lack of an intonation to the Gloria is problematic in the context of the 1962 Missal.

    I’ve heard of two potential approaches: either having the priest intone in chant and the choir then commencing the work as usual, or otherwise starting at ‘Et in terra’.

    Has anyone here used this Mass with the ‘62 Missal? What has your approach been?
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 360
    It'd be a shame to ruin the musical effect, but I think that repeating the text "Gloria in excelsis Deo" would be weird, if not downright forbidden (I'm not sure on that point). So your best bet would probably be for the Priest to intone using one of the "major" mode Glorias (so, VII or VIII), ending his intonation on E flat, and then the choir starts with "Et in terra".

    We sing a Gloria with a similar issue, but we do it with organ accomplishment, so what happens is the Priest intones (with Gloria VIII intonation, if I remember right) and then the organ plays what would have been the choir's "Gloria in excelsis Deo" as a short fanfare/introduction, and then the choir starts with "Et in terra". It works really well with our particular Gloria, but I don't imagine that organ would work as well with the Rheinberger Mass.
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  • Xopheros
    Posts: 124
    All masses by Haydn set the full text of the Gloria, including the first phrase. Haydn (and Rhinberger, too) lived obviously long before 1962, but it is unlikely that he set the full text if it was not meant to be sung. And AFAIK, Haydn was still sung after 1962. I am too young to have attended a mass that uses the 1962 missal, but whenever I heard a classical mass setting live at mass, eihter the priest sang the intonation and the choir repeated the words, or the priest omitted the intonation.
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  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 227
    I would suggest having the priest intone (Mass VIII in this case for major mode, Mass XI if you did a minor-mode setting) and then singing the entire piece as written. There is plenty of precedent for this and no reason to be scrupulous about such a long-standing flexibility in custom among polyphonic settings.
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  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 227
    I am too young to have attended a mass that uses the 1962 missal


    !

    I am sure you are not too young to try it!
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  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,290
    then the organ plays what would have been the choir's "Gloria in excelsis Deo" as a short fanfare/introduction, and then the choir starts with "Et in terra".
    this is a very elegant solution to this problem
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,086
    I am sure you are not too young to try it!


    Be kind since we may not know where the poster is writing from. I am in a diocese where the former bishop allowed the old mass. People and priests complained endlessly about his faults and short-comings. The new bishop has suppressed celebrating according to the 1962 missal. If anyone wants the ancient mass they will have to drive several hundred miles. The devil we knew was better than the devil we now have.
    Thanked by 2davido StimsonInRehab
  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 227
    Yes, that was a little flippant. But I do hope my fellow lutenist and church musician @Xopheros gets to assist at a Mass with the older missal someday. It is very helpful for all church musicians in that it illuminates and clarifies how music and chant interact with the other parts of the Roman Rite, regardless of how one feels about the post-V2 reforms.
    Thanked by 5a_f_hawkins StimsonInRehab CharlesW Palestrina rich_enough
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 580
    Thanks, Charles. I think that would work with the Rheinberger... What would you do with Durufle's 'Messe cum Jubilo', with the absolutely obvious chant reference, sandwiched in after some organo pleno?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,586
    I second the recommendation to just do the Mass as written with an appropriate chant incipit.

    (A second lutenist has hit the forum?!)
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,970
    I always try to program Glorias with repeated intonations on days of especially festive character. I take my cue from Philippians 4:4 - "gaudete in Domino semper iterum dico gaudete". I figure it's a liturgical 'iterum'.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,586
    OK that’s a good one dear Stimson.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,262
    A third option might be to retext the initial Gloria as an "et in terra pax". This will probably require altering rhythms, and a fair amount of chutzpah. It also works better if text repetition is common in the music.

    The Op. 62 Missa Puerorum is a Landsmesse and as such is missing some text in the Gloria. Having a redundant Gloria is one thing; missing prescribed text is another, and the music is too good and useful not to do. So I recomposed the Gloria to include the missing text (available on cpdl). I think my fake-Rheinberger is fairly convincing, but your milage may vary. With the added text and no-nonsense delivery of the original, it's a bit of a breathless sing. I bring this up here, because (since I was sitting anyway), I retexted the initial Gloria there, and it might serve as an example. The repeated text isn't super ecological, but most people won't notice.
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  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 227
    I've sung both the Rheinberger E-flat Mass and the Duruflé Messe cum jubilo in the context of Masses celebrated with the 1962 Missal. In the case of Duruflé too, it seems like the celebrant can intone using the beginning of Gloria IX, although starting on C as the choir does might be a bit of a stretch for most priests I know!

    Most of these settings discussed (Haydn, Rheinberger) that have the choir sing the beginning of the text are clearly intended for liturgical use. Clearly their authors didn't scruple about repeating the text, so why should we when we sing it? Don't we fulfill both the letter and the spirit of the rubrics of the Roman Missal by having the celebrant begin in chant, and then having the choir sing a polyphonic setting?
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 220
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I'm here for that answer, Charles. (And Matthew et al. Who have said the same thing).

    Also, how timely this is.... I was having a discussion via text with some friends right when this thread began! Ha!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,586
    In the case of a range problem I tend to treat it by thinking hexachordally. We did the solemn Mode V Benedicamus with Byrd’s Deo gratias last night, and we did both starting on G; the mode is transposed, and so it is sort of mode V & VIII together (since the mode’s ambitus matches the transposed final). But it worked really well.

    So I might adjust the pitch for the Duruflé on similar lines, although I don’t think that my priest would need to, happily.
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