Transitioning to a more traditional music program
  • Clara Chung
    Posts: 30
    Hi everyone,

    I started a job as a full-time music director at a parish about 3 months ago, and am looking for advice, others' experiences, etc. In short, I am transitioning the parish from the usual OCP fare to traditional hymnody and sung simple propers. The parish actually does sing for music that they know, and while some people have been very resistant to change there are others who have really appreciated it. I'm trying to change the musical culture in such a way that people can get used to it and the new hymns can eventually become the familiar hymns, and I'm hoping not to lose the culture of congregational singing here that's honestly just really rare in the area. We have the crotchety people who are threatening to leave because of the Latin and incense and tradition, but I think the normal parishioner here just wants to know what's happening and if you go slowly and explain things as you go along, they'll probably amble along with you.

    The pastor is relatively new (just under 2 years at this point, I think) and has already been moving towards restoring the liturgy, and set out to hire a new music director as sort of a next phase in renewing parish life. He believes--as I'm sure we all do--that music is a crucial and powerful tool in sanctifying the liturgy and the people. He had been pushing for using the Source & Summit hymnal and the chanted propers for over a year with the last music director, who ended up retiring after 38 years for health reasons. I'm very lucky that the pastor is supportive, and the staff have been as well.

    The parish has been solidly OCP drivel for decades. The musicians were up in the front next to the sanctuary, and there were drums at 4 of the 6 weekend Masses. There used to be "choirs" of a sort, but they were essentially unison backup singers to the music director who played piano and sang, and by the time I arrived it was just hired cantors plus piano or guitar, drums, and electric bass at most of the Masses. The 8am Mass does have a volunteer choir run by a 90-year-old volunteer director who is pretty spry and who generally has a mix of more traditional music and the usual OCP stuff: one time I came for a rehearsal and they were working on Palestrina's O Bone Jesu, another Sunday they were singing Panis Angelicus, but also Hosea, and this weekend they're singing Be Not Afraid and Servant Song. Honestly I have way bigger fish to fry so while I'm increasing oversight, I'm mostly leaving them alone.

    I began right before Lent and moved all of the musicians out of the sanctuary and into the choir loft (which had mostly been overflow seating) by around the 5th Sunday of Lent. I've decreased the number of Masses that the band plays at, and we have a pretty adequate interim organist playing at most of the Masses now while I cantor as much as humanly possible. I'm trying to integrate myself into parish life where I can, singing for things like May crownings and leading the music for the youth ministry's Living Stations, etc., so I'm a little less of just the hateful new person who's destroying everything. I'm also looking into planning some catechetical sessions to talk about what the Church has said about music and how we're trying to align with that. We've had some complaints, but I've also been stopped by plenty of people who have commented on the beauty of the music or on how reverent it is and how happy they are about the changes.

    The fact remains though, that people are used to what they're used to and even if they think the music is beautiful, they don't really sing along with music they don't know. Active participation isn't just a singalong, but it's still a good thing I would like to continue to foster. I think it's much harder to get people to sing with a cantor than it is a choir--I'm lobbying for funding for section leaders, and right now I have a handful of volunteers who come to sing in the loft (like, one or two per Mass at most, so it's really more vibes and morale than anything else--which still matters, of course), but I'd also like to hear what else people have done that has worked. How have you created familiarity with new (very old) hymns--do you repeat a hymn or hymn tune over and over? If you sing the propers and aim for congregational singing there, what do you use? What other kinds of tactics have worked for you?

    Thanks for reading! I'm sure there have been plenty of similar discussions in the past, but I do find the search function on the sidebar a little less than helpful most of the time, so feel free to link to previous threads too!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,503
    > planning some catechetical sessions to talk about what the Church has said about music and how we're trying to align with

    I wouldn't do that. It just provides a forum for people to argue, and telegraphs your long term intentions.

    Make a list of what happens at a current service normally, then make a list next to it of the thing you want to be happening instead. Prioritize the list and make one change per liturgical season over the next year or two.
  • rvisser
    Posts: 92
    With new hymns, I have found that I need to repeat much more often than I would like, in order to get strong singing. I teach at a parish school where we sing at daily Mass (a cappella), and we have spent the last six months months singing only Jesus My Lord My God My All, O Jesus We Adore You, Adoro te Devote, and Godhead Here in Hiding during communion. During Easter I added in two other hymns on a few days. We sing Mon-Thurs unless I am gone in the morning and miss Mass. Not a single person - adult or student - has told me they are sick of singing these hymns.

    Familiarity is your friend. You may only be able to introduce one new hymn per season, and that's ok. Your parish will build a repertoire over time. You may also be able to use some of their existing repertoire but accompany it on the organ, which will make the transition less jarring because it is a new instrument but not new music.

    I wouldn't spend any effort trying to get the congregation to sing the propers. My parish uses the Ignatius Pew Missal, which has propers printed for the congregation so they can sing if they want to, but I honestly don't think it's worth it. I would prefer to just have the choir sing it beautifully.

    If you have an opportunity to teach children, I have found that to be a very effective way to introduce change.
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 167
    With new hymns, I have found that I need to repeat much more often than I would like, in order to get strong singing.


    This. I've only just recently began appreciating how long it takes the average person in the pew to learn a new song. Maybe because we have been able to read music since we could read words, we forget that most people can't do that? But it can take up to a dozen repetitions before we really get good uptake with a new hymn.

    If you have an opportunity to teach children, I have found that to be a very effective way to introduce change.


    Also this. They will be enthusiastic about anything you're enthusiastic about.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Clara Chung
  • davido
    Posts: 1,204
    I’ve been at my job for seven years. I’ve been using come down o love divine regularly for all seven years. I looked out on Sunday, and almost no one had cracked open their book to sing it.

    Sometimes they just are never going to like a given hymn.
    Thanked by 1Clara Chung
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,616
    Davido

    How many times a year do you program CDOLD?
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,270
    Get yourself a mentor/support to help talk through your decisions. Sometimes experience can help you avoid mistakes, And beleive me, I have been at this 40 years and have made a few mistakes. I would be happy to assist you. I do this for about 4 other young directors.
    Thanked by 2Clara Chung CHGiffen
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 404
    I have no experience as a parish musician (except, you know, croaking out my diaconal parts), but a fair amount of experience in ministry in general. My take is that you're right to want to not destroy congregational singing, since it is a rare commodity among US Catholic parishes. I'm of the view that it's worth hanging on to songs that strike you as musically inferior (as long as the words are not heretical) longer than you would like to if the congregation will sing them. You can phase them out once you have them singing other things.

    As far as new music goes, I'd echo what others have said about introducing things slowly. Also, most non-musicians are guided more by vibes than by musical categories. So you can often sneak in more traditional hymnody if it's accompanied by the piano or the band than if it's accompanied by the organ, and people won't identify it as "old" (and therefore, in their estimation, not something they want to sing). Down the road you can try it with organ and they will probably keep singing it.

    I know people have strong opinions on rehearsing new music with congregation before Mass starts. I'm opposed in theory, but have seen it make a difference in practice, not so much because the congregation learns the music, but because it tells them that this is something you 1) want them to sing and 2) believe that they are capable of singing.

    Also, if your priest is willing and able, singing the dialogues is a great way to get the congregation to make some noise. Likewise things like the Our Father, which most people want to join in on, even if it means they have to sing.
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 383
    Don’t transition faster than the church. Push for following the missal; get interpretations of the girm in writing from the diocese to back what you say. Chatechize the committee. Reconcile yourself to them first.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,554
    The diocese won’t understand that and if it does, it won’t help.
  • Clara Chung
    Posts: 30
    Thanks for all of this, keep it coming! I do have some mentorship around here and quite a few connections from having worked as a staff singer all over, but it was usually at very different programs such as the cathedrals and churches with really strong choral programs already existing. I have fewer connections with people in the trenches, as it were.

    I'm surprised at the advice not to do catechetical sessions--it's something the priest has encouraged, as well as the faith formation staff here. I've been trying to figure out ways to make it less like "Here's why what you've been doing is bad and wrong and here's what I'm gonna do which is much better." So far I've been thinking maybe a more general history and appreciation of sacred music, which will probably bring in some of the Church documents as well. I feel like I saw someone mentioning something about "Music Minutes" in the bulletin in another thread, I'm curious to know what that looked like and how I might be able to do similar things--I wrote a letter for the bulletin when we moved to the choir loft that addressed why our reasoning and also some of the other changes that had happened, and I got a lot of positive feedback from people who appreciated that I was bringing people into what was going on. People at this parish have a real sense of ownership of their community and seem to really care about understanding what's happening.

    We're keeping the drums, etc for a couple of the Masses--the drummer and bassist have been here for over 20 years each and are recognized and beloved by the community, and the man leading the guitar Mass for the Saturday vigil is a long-time member of the parish. He actually doesn't read music at all (eek) so I'm having to work with him kind of slowly to build up a repertoire and teach him new music, which has been slow-going but has honestly been useful as a way to force myself to slow down. The morning Masses are all organ and I'll eventually be building a choir (I hope), and I have plans in place with the elementary school music teacher to build a children's choir with the school and parish children and teach them chant. She was also formed mostly in OCP-land but has been very receptive and even excited about learning more traditional music, and she's already well-known and loved by the students of the school so it makes more sense strategically to have her direct, even if I'm working on the programming.

    Hearing the suggestion to repeat hymns more than I think would be reasonable is honestly really helpful. I hated the idea, mostly because when I was young it was done without real regard for the readings or anything, but it does make sense. I've been trying repeating hymn tunes with different texts and cycling them so there's at least some chance at variety. There's been a ton of Hyfrydol and Lasst uns Erfreuen lately :)

  • Clara Chung
    Posts: 30
    Don’t transition faster than the church. Push for following the missal; get interpretations of the girm in writing from the diocese to back what you say. Chatechize the committee. Reconcile yourself to them first.


    I'm lucky that the pastor has already been working on the project of bringing things in line, so rather than going it alone I'm more of a next step in his rollout. Liturgically things are generally pretty good here, though there are some quirks. There is a liturgy and faith formation coordinator who I was delighted to find is actually serious about doing what the texts say and not faffing about with other things too much--she's not trad per se, but she's solid and has been really supportive even though she grew up with and has a lot of affection for the folk stuff she grew up with. People in parish leadership have also been very open, and some are pretty excited about what I'm doing. My office is right across the hall from where the weekly Bible study is held, and the man leading it started asking me to come in to cantor the Marian antiphon for them at the beginning of their sessions.

    I'm in the LA Archdiocese so there's a pretty big Office of Worship here and I can defer to the documents they send out...but to be honest I worked at the LA Cathedral for long enough to know I don't want to poke that bear too much!

    I think the main crux of things here is that there are two minorities, people who love the changes and people who hate them--these just are what they are. The majority don't have a strong opinion, but they're going to be confused by a lot of changes happening all at once. I'm trying to focus on matching their pace so they can warm to things and make them their own, and that's honestly where I have the least experience so I'm looking for more advice on how people have done this in other places.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen m_r_taylor
  • TimTheEnchanterTimTheEnchanter
    Posts: 234
    I'm surprised at the advice not to do catechetical sessions--it's something the priest has encouraged, as well as the faith formation staff here.


    Give yourself time to really become a part of the community, first. I've been at my parish five years, and I'm planning on a chat series about the Church and music this summer. I could have done it a year or two ago, but we had late-breaking priest transfers and other "fun" that made such a series one too many things.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Clara Chung
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,085
    I have said this before, but before introducing a new hymn I would play it for several weeks as an incidental piece during offertory or communion. Then I would have the choir or cantor sing it from time to time. Lastly, the congregation would recognize it and eventually start singing it. Takes time, often longer than you would think.
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 216
    It is amazing to me, as a former Lutheran (LCMS) at how long it takes people to sing hymns outright ... On average, my congregation took a a chorale prelude, and a single verse before they were full throat on a brand new hymn. I'm still trying to get used to that difference...
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 487
    I've been trying repeating hymn tunes with different texts and cycling them so there's at least some chance at variety.


    I'm not convinced that this is a good idea. The association between tune and text is a key part of what makes hymns catechetical: hearing or humming the tune brings the text to mind.

    It works with trained choirs and musicians, who can cope with the disconnect. But for ordinary people, a hymn needs strong associations to become well-loved. And that's what it needs to become to maintain congregational singing.



    Thanked by 1Clara Chung
  • ejklemz
    Posts: 4
    I've been working on a very similar project at my parish, with very similar situations. Like others said, it takes WAY more time and repetition than you think or want. Definitely a sanctifying work of patience.

    As far as propers, I started with the Communion antiphon in English, every Sunday, without exception. It took a while to get people on board, but now I don't get any complaints about chant, because they're used to hearing it now. It feels normal. I throw in the Offertory antiphon every once in a while, depending on the season. The more solemnity, the more chant (also the more Latin) they're going to hear, and they seem to accept that alright. You won't ever get them to sing it though. And for the love of all good things, don't make the chants dirges, I beg thee. If it's not beautiful and vibey, people won't respond well. I've had great luck with Fr. Webber's Propers (usually the second, simplified option, but not the plainchant), with a simple drone to help create an actual atmosphere. We get lots of compliments. Seriously, don't underestimate a one note drone.

    As far as hymnody, it really depends on the parish. The best way for me has been to really know which hymns are both popular and also Not Horrendous and keep those around, making them as beautiful as possible, and then slowly trickle in unfamiliar hymns with lots of repetition. A cappella in parts (when able) has been a crowd favorite so far. For Advent I did a really simple 2-part arrangement of The Angel Gabriel, which no one was really familiar with, and I got multiple requests to do it again because the congregation loved it and wanted to sing it. People actually requesting to sing something not terrible? Jaw on the floor. But it's because Angel Gabriel is really fun and vibey, so I would lean into hymns that sell themselves well.

    Encouraging young people to join the choir has also been helpful for me with regards to overall morale. Older generations are less likely to complain if they see younger people caring about things and participating.

    But yeah, time. I'm 2 years in and only just now starting to see any progress. It's gonna take years. And prayer. A lot of prayer XD
    Thanked by 1Clara Chung
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 167
    I have said this before, but before introducing a new hymn I would play it for several weeks as an incidental piece during offertory or communion. Then I would have the choir or cantor sing it from time to time. Lastly, the congregation would recognize it and eventually start singing it. Takes time, often longer than you would think.


    This is great advice, and I frequently do this too. Once they kinda know the tune, that's half the battle won.
    Thanked by 2Liam Clara Chung
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,616
    Yes, yes, and yes to the above and to CharlesW.
    Thanked by 2Clara Chung CHGiffen
  • m_r_taylor
    Posts: 373
    Re: the catechesis question, I think there is plenty of latitude in "music minutes"-style columns or brief talks to introduce pieces or concepts without oppositional language or signaling that you intend to Set Things Right Around Here. History of a hymn or a proper or a Mass setting. Quotation of an church Father - or our current Pope - about music. It will all add up.
    Thanked by 1Clara Chung
  • Clara Chung
    Posts: 30
    I'm not convinced that this is a good idea. The association between tune and text is a key part of what makes hymns catechetical: hearing or humming the tune brings the text to mind.

    It works with trained choirs and musicians, who can cope with the disconnect. But for ordinary people, a hymn needs strong associations to become well-loved. And that's what it needs to become to maintain congregational singing.


    I'm thinking about pieces where they're already strongly associated with more than one text. Hyfrydol is the best example for me, but I know there are some others out there. We'll be using it for the third time in a row this week, once as Love Divine and twice as Alleluia, Sing to Jesus. I remember clutching my pearls when a friend set "Lord, who at Cana's wedding feast" to Kingsfold, so I do get that.
  • Clara Chung
    Posts: 30
    I have said this before, but before introducing a new hymn I would play it for several weeks as an incidental piece during offertory or communion. Then I would have the choir or cantor sing it from time to time. Lastly, the congregation would recognize it and eventually start singing it. Takes time, often longer than you would think.


    The idea of having it as incidental music is great! This honestly kind of helps me get away from feeling like I'm doing the same thing over and over and over.

    In general I think one of the projects I'll need to work on is getting a list of music from past years that the people are familiar with. Some of the Masses were run by different groups without oversight so it's hard to get a handle on what those groups know, but I do have the former music director's photocopied music planning sheets from several years past.

    ejklemz, I'm resonating with a lot of what you're saying. I'm doing Communion antiphons as well, and my chant style has always been pretty speedy so sometimes I have to actively slow it down a little if I feel like I hear people singing. The liturgy coordinator did tell me that when we had a worship aid for the May Crowning or other Masses, people were singing along to the antiphons to the best of their ability, which surprised me.

    Generally letting go of trying to get people to sing the antiphons and just getting them used to them happening at all makes a lot of sense to me, and I think there's a chance people will sing as they get more used to them. For hymns, I guess I'll be repeating a lot more!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,554

    It works with trained choirs and musicians, who can cope with the disconnect. But for ordinary people, a hymn needs strong associations to become well-loved. And that's what it needs to become to maintain congregational singing.


    Maybe. But there are texts that I think should be sung and yet the meter is such that while there is a tune I am not willing to introduce it. For example LUX EOI is too chromatic for us without an organ, and what? I’ll use it once a year. It worked well with PLEADING SAVIOR. We did KINGSFOLD for the first time in several years once with a new text, then the next week, yesterday, with O Jesus Crowned with all renown. I was happy. They know it. It will get I heard the voice of Jesus say in time.

    We use ELLACOMBE for two texts. I had it for a third but that one doesn’t fit as well which is fine; PLEADING SAVIOR with its usual text is my new Marian standby.
    Thanked by 1Clara Chung
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 167
    Generally letting go of trying to get people to sing the antiphons and just getting them used to them happening at all makes a lot of sense to me, and I think there's a chance people will sing as they get more used to them.


    Ha ha ha.... I do the same thing with my children. I make them have food on their plate just to make them tolerate it being on their plate, hoping someday they'll be tempted to try it *grin*.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Clara Chung
  • ejv3
    Posts: 1
    1.) I agree with Adam Wood - don't telegraph your intentions. Builds instant frustration and bad feelings in many people. People will set themselves against you. Rather, build good will initially. A wise old priest once said "You want to move like a glacier, so slowly no one can even tell you are moving, but after 10 years the entire landscape has changed." Telegraph the fact early (even implicitly) that your goal is too eliminate utterly what they love... good look with that. Show them the beauty, let them gradually soften up to it, let them gradually feel comfortable in a different musical setting because they are starting to feel at home there. There is indeed a time to catechize more formally, you will have to discern that, but initially, let your kindness, gentleness, humility, and beautiful music itself catechize people. Sometimes a more aggressive approach works if you have a pastor who supports the aggression and it is the right situation, but aggressive changes area always riskier.

    2.) Source and Summit is great - Why? It allows you to print up worship aides if you subscribe. The first couple of years or so, use them a couple of times a month while you use 100% Source and Summit hymns at those Masses with the worship aides. The other Masses you can use OCP missals already in the pews. Then, you can switch from OCP to Source and Summit and missals, and STILL print up worship aides, but this time with an online subscription to One License (OCP music), and just tell everyone you are using less OCP, but you are still using it - hard to riot at that. When people get frustrated, you can tell them you are still doing OCP, and that there is always gradual change in any music program over time.

    3.) Feel free to gradually lessen the OCP worship aides to the point of eliminating them, just discern the right time/year to do that.

    4.) Personnel is Policy - try to bring in other like minded people as choir members, accompaniest, etc. - don't think you can "convert" too many of the people who love the OCP stuff for the last 30 years. Also, do find a trusted, holy, experienced, confidential person to bounce ideas off, it really does help, and the Lord works in those conversations more than you'd think.

    5.) Better to err on the side of "too slow" than "too quickly." - Too quickly, you will die on the vine. Too slowly, that means the parish transformation occurs a few years later than you would have liked, but you still have a job, your sanity, and a great victory for the Lord will have taken place in that parish because you actually accomplished the goal you set out to do.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,236
    Ideally the main celebration of Mass on a Sunday should be sung in full -- every word but the homily -- but the structure of Mass makes some elements more basic than others, and these should become sung before anything else is.

    The 1967 document Musicam sacram listed the elements of Mass in three groups, recommending the first as most foundational; then the second and the third in turn.

    They seem to be grouped approximately in this way:
    • 1. the "dialogue" elements of the Mass Ordinary: their melody (almost) never changes for the congregation;
    • 2. other elements of the Mass Ordinary: their text is always the same, but their melody can change
    • 3. the "proper" elements whose text changes every Sunday


    Musicam sacram was offering this model as a way to move from completely spoken Masses to fully sung Masses, but you might use it too for the transition you're preparing.

    These are the elements in the first group:
    • In the entrance rites:
      • the greeting of the priest together with the reply of the people
      • the collect (or "opening prayer")

    • In the Liturgy of the Word:
      • the acclamations at the Gospel

    • In the Eucharistic Liturgy
      • the prayer over the offerings
      • the preface, with its dialogue and the Sanctus
      • the final doxology of the Canon
      • the Lord's Prayer with its introduction and embolism
      • the Pax Domini
      • the prayer after Communion
      • the dismissal



    If most of these are being spoken at your Sunday Masses, then these give you opportunities to get the priest and people singing simple chant-style melodies as shown in the Roman Missal, without anyone feeling deprived.

    As others have recommended, it's good to start small and go slowly. If you take a year to get people singing for all of these, that's pretty good.
  • probe
    Posts: 158
    In our parish we have the Kevin Mayhew Hymns Old and New, paperback words edition which has no melody. 811 hymns, no page count shown. So even the people who know as little music as "if the dots go up, sing higher" can only rely on the organist playing them often enough to pick up hymns they don't already know. OTOH all the hymns are or were once well known, maybe only to older parishioners. I'd rather we had picked a book similar to the London Oratory Catholic Hymn Book, 316 hymns, but that's rather large and bulky at 500 pages. So for our choir's contribution, as well as the Latin Kyriale and a Communion chant, we also sing the entrance and exit hymns to encourage the congregation. I google for recordings (usually YouTube) so the choir can learn them.
    Thanked by 2Clara Chung CHGiffen
  • Clara Chung
    Posts: 30
    Thanks for your thoughts, everyone! The pastor is actually someone I'd put in the "more aggressive" camp. One of his earlier changes was moving the tabernacle to the center of the church--I think a handful of people grumbled about it at first but that went away relatively quickly. He's ultimately laid the groundwork for a lot of the changes I'm working on, so it's more of a second stage at this point.

    We're planning on moving to Source & Summit as our missal, with the plan to supplement with OneLicense and possibly the Breaking Bread digital library. (I still haven't worked out if I really need it or if I can stick with the scanned copies of the keyboard accompaniment book plus the assembly editions from OneLicense.) I think Father would be happier just switching over and being done with it, but I think we should lengthen the transition period a bit longer--at least another year, maybe two.

    Chonak--The pastor chants most of the elements of the first group you mentioned, and the other priests do to varying degrees of success haha. One of my major projects this summer will be to work on getting the priests and deacons to learn the chants properly so the congregation can feel more confident responding, because of course it's much more tentative when they kind of go off-roading. But because of this, people do chant the responses back. I'd like to lean into that and incorporate the rest of that first stage in MS. I'm not sure if this was done this way in the past or if this was another new change with the current pastor. I had been considering a "practical session" that was mostly going through the people's responses, because people here do seem to respond well to being taught--I did a quick teaching session of the chants for the Palm Sunday procession maybe 10 minutes before we began, and I could hear people singing along with the chant antiphons once we started processing.

    I have worried about moving too fast and had originally been thinking in terms of 5 years for completing a transition, but there's a push to go a little faster. At this point I'm doing my best to continue taking the temperature of the congregation to guide the pace, rather than any concrete timelines.


    Thanked by 1CHGiffen